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RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

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Malcolm
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:29 am

chopperscot wrote:I wish Scotland could have dealt with the financial crisis like Iceland did, jailed the Bankers n bailed out the people!
Iceland have had to abort their plans to join the EU because they defaulted on their loan obligations. They owed most money to The Netherlands, and they have said they will block Icelands EU membership unless and untill they settle their debts.

Whilst some aspects of their 'recovery' from going bankrupt are popular with the public, I'm not sure the Iceland model is one that other countries should follow in the future. If Scotland had been independent at the time of the Global Financial Crash, and if RBS and HBOS had still been Scottish backed, then who would have bailed the banks out? The UK economy is big enough to do it (just!). The Scottish economy isn't.

scimitar
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by scimitar » Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:56 am

Well that's why Mums go to Iceland.
The Iceland model is pretty much standard across the globe i.e we are up s@it creek lets borrow more money and default on that as well, maybe that's plan B. It's better thought out than plan A bearing in mind that it's estimated that it will take up to 10 years to create a tax raising\collecting structure meanwhile the many thousand of civil servant required to run a country aren't being paid, are defaulting on mortgages, can't spend what they don't have and the spiral to oblivion gains pace. Replicate across all Government and we are pumped before we start.
The future's bright. NO
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POL
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by POL » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:34 am

chopperscot wrote:What I hear here, with my old un educated brain is " moan moan, you can't do that, moan, don't be stupid, moan, don't change anything everything's fine, whinge, etc"
Are you sure it's old, seems like the brain of a three-year-old! :whistle: :lol:

scimitar
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by scimitar » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:58 am

chopperscot wrote:What I hear here, with my old un educated brain is " moan moan, you can't do that, moan, don't be stupid, moan, don't change anything everything's fine, whinge, etc"
No one is saying things are great but what's the alternative post 18/9. A small country trying to blackmail the rest of the UK, Europe etc etc. The vision of wee eck is great but he has no clout in the world and no contingency plan. A yes vote leaves no way back it's 1 way trip to oblivion.
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onemac
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by onemac » Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:33 am

chopperscot wrote:What I hear here, with my old uneducated brain is " moan moan, you can't do that, moan, don't be stupid, moan, don't change anything everything's fine, whinge, etc".
Ian, your old brain is younger than mine and it's certainly not uneducated. Your opinion is different to the majority posting on here and that's not wrong but the statisticians will tell you there's a tendency for the status quo (got any songs in your head yet?) and that peeps are apprehensive about change. The changes allow for no backup plan and as scimitar says, a yes vote leaves no way back. That seems short-sighted to say the least - are you prepared to put your family in that situation?

Back to the OP - what percentage of the BBMF do you think Scotland would be entitled to? Surely we could bag a Spit or Hurricane but knowing our luck we would end up with a Chipmonk :'( And where would we station our half-dozen Aircraft? No way would it be viable to keep Leuchars or Lossie open for such a small group so you're looking at the civvy airfields - Inverness/Aberdeen/Glasgow/Edinburgh/Perth or Prestwick etc. Just think what relocating to these airfields would do to our hobby - no popping down for an hour or two before work :unsure:

Al

scimitar
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by scimitar » Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:52 am

If we vote yes then the future for defence in Scotland will be similar to the Irish Air Corp. Time to take up bus spotting me thinks.
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Contrail1958
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by Contrail1958 » Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:57 am

You work Al ? :lol:
Thought you were packing your bags and heading south ?
Aaah your slowly coming around to wee Eck's way of thinking ;)

Malcolm
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:00 am

onemac wrote:Back to the OP - what percentage of the BBMF do you think Scotland would be entitled to? Surely we could bag a Spit or Hurricane but knowing our luck we would end up with a Chipmonk :'( And where would we station our half-dozen Aircraft? No way would it be viable to keep Leuchars or Lossie open for such a small group so you're looking at the civvy airfields - Inverness/Aberdeen/Glasgow/Edinburgh/Perth or Prestwick etc. Just think what relocating to these airfields would do to our hobby - no popping down for an hour or two before work :unsure:

Al
If the split is done purely on the economy/GDP/Population then Scotland is 'entitled' to around 8% of all the assets. I think that means 1 whole Spitfire, and a crew seat in the crew of the Lanc.

Interestingly, it means that Scotland is also 'entitled' to 8% of the M25, M1, M2, M3, M4, M5, M6, M27 etc as well. Which bits would you like?

And the UK is entitled to 92% of the mate, M9, M74, M79, M80. Not sure what we're going to do with them but fair is fair :P

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Topol-M
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by Topol-M » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:58 pm

Can't believe I missed this thread until now

I wondered how long it would take before the Norway comparison came into play - 5 pages isn't bad

If you want Norway, then also consider 25%VAT rates, £7 a pint, fuel 15% more expensive (because they put stuff in reserve), cost of living is huge, VAT on most food is 15%.

Norway isn't the best example to use really

Oh, and I think I saw food banks in Scotland being mentioned? There's plenty of them elsewhere in the UK too so it's not a Scotland only thing

I live in Scotland, ex RAF and Work for a UK company, controlling skies in England from a building in Scotland. Some of my family are Scottish, but live in England, whilst some of my English family live in Scotland :P

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Topol-M
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by Topol-M » Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:18 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Interestingly, it means that Scotland is also 'entitled' to 8% of the M25, M1, M2, M3, M4, M5, M6, M27 etc as well. Which bits would you like?
Do you think they'll dig the 8% up and fill in the roads up here with it? They're total s**t up here - i've been on better roads in Africa in some places :lol:

Meanwhile, Salmond decides a new Forth road bridge is needed, spending millions on it, when normal A roads are rotten - you only have to look at these type of decisions that are made up here to see where the road of independance will lead to (pun intended)

I also forgot to mention above that in the early days Salmond also quoted succesful countries that have gained their independance, one of which - Ukraine :pop: :pop:

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Jazz
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by Jazz » Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:29 pm

chopperscot wrote:What I hear here, with my old un educated brain is " moan moan, you can't do that, moan, don't be stupid, moan, don't change anything everything's fine, whinge, etc"
So lets have some mature counter-arguments made, backed up with facts (or even SNP policies if you like!), as others have done. Its still an open debate, despite some wanting it closed down. No need to reduce it to accusing others of being RAF (me neither), English born, loyal to the Queen, or even the classic... "i see you come from the north of scotland" :lol:

As i mentioned earlier, speaking with Scots at work, this whole debate has been lacking in clear (ideally independent) facts, to help people make a reasonably informed judgement on independence and vote accordingly. Instead its been reduced to what people see in tabloids and on TV, and hear down the pub etc.

Malcolm has been making some reasoned points and clear facts (anyone dispute the figures on HMG income from oil and gas?), and early on i pushed him on the issue of Scotland's share of the the UK's national debt. Despite stating "HMG has already said that all current UK debts/borrowing will remain UK debts/borrowing", we still have the subject of carving up assests, like a messy divorce. If correct then, Scotland gets away scot-free (sorry) with their share of £1.5 Trillion of national debt, but then can't cherry pick this and that. Would be a cleaner divorce (excluding the Faslane issue), though maybe hardly fair on the rest of the UK?
Topol-M wrote:I live in Scotland, ex RAF and Work for a UK company, controlling skies in England from a building in Scotland. Some of my family are Scottish, but live in England, whilst some of my English family live in Scotland :P
As someone mentioned earlier, this is "not a representative vote" due to the fact that "thousands of full Scots who currently work/live outside Scotland" will not be eligible to vote. Maybe i'll get shot down for saying this, but politics aside, most people in the UK don't see each other as foreigners, and that the UK IS a sovereign state (despite ancient walls etc), where British people have freely moved around etc, so much for such a long time now. So, to now try and label people this or that, you can vote but you can't, could never be fair. But, with the separatist SNP in power, means that this is the consequence, and it has to be managed as fairly as possible.

Even in 2014, how many countries respect (or avoid) the UN charter of right of self determination? How many people are denied this? Might not be pleasent for Canada or Spain for example, to lose a chunk of their country (Quebec and the Basque/Catalan regions), but if thats what the people want, despite the complications, they have that right to decide? So, as long as Scots vote for the SNP, this issue might never go away for the UK. But, seeing how HMG respects this right, compared to 'no' and civil wars elsewhere, certainly makes me proud to be British. GBTQ.
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Topol-M
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by Topol-M » Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:17 pm

That was kind of my point SaudiKev

I'm English but live in Scotland so get a vote, yet my Scottish family who live in England don't (they'd all be no voters - as I am)

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Mike
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by Mike » Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:48 pm

I haven't seen anyone mention Scotland's share of the UK National debt yet.

The figures for 2012/13 show that it was equivelent to £18,606 for every person in the UK - so if Scotland get 8% of national assets then they can have 8% of that as well, which at 2012/13 rates will be £18,606 per person (or thereabouts). The UK national debt in 2012/13 was £1,185 billion (or thereabouts). :whistle:

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Jazz
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by Jazz » Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:17 pm

Mike wrote:I haven't seen anyone mention Scotland's share of the UK National debt yet...
Mentioned on Page 2, Mike. Estimated to be around £1.5 Trillion at the time of independence. The revenue from oil and gas has also been detailed... :unsure:
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Mike
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by Mike » Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:29 pm

SaudiKev wrote:
Mike wrote:I haven't seen anyone mention Scotland's share of the UK National debt yet...
Mentioned on Page 2, Mike. Estimated to be around £1.5 Trillion at the time of independence. The revenue from oil and gas has also been detailed... :unsure:
Sorry, I must have missed that bit - that'll be about £20,000 per person then !

I am, quite honestly, losing the will to live with this "independance" carp..............................

ArabJazzie
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by ArabJazzie » Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:30 pm

Topol-M wrote:Can't believe I missed this thread until now

I wondered how long it would take before the Norway comparison came into play - 5 pages isn't bad

If you want Norway, then also consider 25%VAT rates, £7 a pint, fuel 15% more expensive (because they put stuff in reserve), cost of living is huge, VAT on most food is 15%.

Norway isn't the best example to use really

Oh, and I think I saw food banks in Scotland being mentioned? There's plenty of them elsewhere in the UK too so it's not a Scotland only thing

I live in Scotland, ex RAF and Work for a UK company, controlling skies in England from a building in Scotland. Some of my family are Scottish, but live in England, whilst some of my English family live in Scotland :P
Aye, Really bad example, eh!
I mean, our deficit might just be adding to their surplus that they are operating in! I would rather pay higher taxes in a system where they are not cutting tax to win the vote then hit you with a dozen other stealth taxes!

And since you are taking up my points on food banks, well i didnt know the whole of this United Kingdom was up the creek! :blush: :whistle:

Do you really think i didnt know Food banks were popping up all over the country. The point for me is that in the last 2 years, they are needed more than ever! This is because the people that the UK vote in, have not been making decisions that are right for the UK! Factor in that the party that has been in power most over the last 30 years, only has one Scottish seat! Hardly a base to represent what i see is my country!

And thanks to Mike for putting a figure on our national debt! Shocked that its over £18K per person! So thats 2% per person that is heading out the country. So thats £360+ per person each year to service our debt, probably to that bad example of Norway!!! Aye the Westminster government have served us well, have they! :grr:
Last edited by ArabJazzie on Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ythanpythan
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by ythanpythan » Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:53 pm

Norwegian pay levels are also very high, their standard of living is generally accepted to be excellent.

scimitar
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by scimitar » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:32 pm

ythanpythan wrote:Norwegian pay levels are also very high, their standard of living is generally accepted to be excellent.
Yes and a significant alcohol problem which blows another SNP policy out the water.
Going back to the OP EGPK is owned by the Scottish people so no doubt wee eck will close Drumfries, East Fortune, Montrose and Inverness museums and move the exhibits to EGPK and claim we have a great and varied Air Farce. Look on the bright side we'll be the only Country with a supersonic airliner.
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onemac
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by onemac » Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:37 pm

Is it my imagination or is that comedy piece a tad one-sided? I await with interest your comedy piece from the other viewpoint :D

Al

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Jazz
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by Jazz » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:20 pm

I'm sticking to The Broons. Last time Horace was putting Granpaw right about the But 'n Ben tax :whistle:
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