The Tory,s want out also!!! dont forget..hertsman wrote:A thought has just occurred. If an independent Scotland is not admitted to the EU, it could corner the market in powerful vacuum cleaners and run them over the border to England at dead of night. Everyone wins. The extra income could help make up any shortfall in Scotland's North Sea reserves and England is rescued from this pathetic ***** nonsense.
hertsman
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RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?
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Sky Pirate
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence: Avoiding a power vac
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Contrail1958
- Posts: 1110
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?
More chance of the 2 Panda's at Edinburgh keeping Lossie open than these two. 
Over and out !!
Over and out !!
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hertsman
Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?
Taking a slightly different slant on the debate, and looking at the defence issues brought into focus by a worrying instability in international relations just now, what defence problems would an independent Scotland and rUK share? Where might a defence pact provide mutual benefits? Some areas that occur to me are:
Air defence. There is much less certainty about Russia's future role in Europe right now. The cold war could well be brought back out of the history books. An attack on Scotland/rUk is much less unthinkable than a year ago. An attack on rUK could well come across Scottish airspace, with no guarantee that Scotland itself would not be attacked either. A co-ordinated response would benefit both countries.
The thorny issue of the nuclear deterrent and Trident. The SNP is all for kicking it out of Scotland. I suggest that is one of the policies that might not survive first contact with reality. The risk of rUK being forced to abandon its deterrent for lack of an affordable alternative has been mooted, yet, at the same time, Putin has recently openly rattled the nuclear sabre, something that is almost unheard of outside North Korea. And what about rogue nuclear armed states? Out of range? Well, we're closer than a few years ago and will be closer still in the near future. A nuclear attack across rUK would inevitably lay waste to much of Scotland, whether or not Scotland is the target. Would a responsible Scottish government really torpedo the deterrence option? There could be as yet unseen common ground between Holyrood and Westminster, especially as it would be a weighty bargaining chip for Scotland in the carve up.
Counter-terrorsim. It would be unwise to assume that Scotland would be immune to terrorist threats. In the current volatile situation in North Africa and the Middle East, the terror threat is real. There are worries about the possibility of a biological threat against the UK. Hard to even think about, but while the main threat would likely be further south, such an attack would not recognise borders. Setting up the networks and structures to counter such threats from scratch would be very costly and time-consuming. Scotland's £2.5bn budget already looks thin. Some sort of sharing deal looks possible. Throw in cyber-threats on top and there really does seem merit in pooling resources on this one. It's an area that we could all do more about.
Whatever side of the dotted lines rUK and Scottish oil and gas fields may eventually fall, they frequently share the same areas of the sea. A co-ordinated protection and response plan would seem to have a lot going for it. I understand foreign submarine activity is increasing in the far north. So, with a need to both protect the Trident base, a huge area of Scottish and rUK coastal waters and the north sea oil and gas fields, it's time for an MPA once more. There are shared interests here too.
Very remote risks? Am I being alarmist? I certainly hope so. But defence planning is about preparing for the unlikely as well as the foreseeable. While there may be many things that seem to be driving us apart, there are lots of shared interests too. After all, we will still be geographical neighbours for another few millennia, and it is in the interests of both countries to get on.
hertsman
Air defence. There is much less certainty about Russia's future role in Europe right now. The cold war could well be brought back out of the history books. An attack on Scotland/rUk is much less unthinkable than a year ago. An attack on rUK could well come across Scottish airspace, with no guarantee that Scotland itself would not be attacked either. A co-ordinated response would benefit both countries.
The thorny issue of the nuclear deterrent and Trident. The SNP is all for kicking it out of Scotland. I suggest that is one of the policies that might not survive first contact with reality. The risk of rUK being forced to abandon its deterrent for lack of an affordable alternative has been mooted, yet, at the same time, Putin has recently openly rattled the nuclear sabre, something that is almost unheard of outside North Korea. And what about rogue nuclear armed states? Out of range? Well, we're closer than a few years ago and will be closer still in the near future. A nuclear attack across rUK would inevitably lay waste to much of Scotland, whether or not Scotland is the target. Would a responsible Scottish government really torpedo the deterrence option? There could be as yet unseen common ground between Holyrood and Westminster, especially as it would be a weighty bargaining chip for Scotland in the carve up.
Counter-terrorsim. It would be unwise to assume that Scotland would be immune to terrorist threats. In the current volatile situation in North Africa and the Middle East, the terror threat is real. There are worries about the possibility of a biological threat against the UK. Hard to even think about, but while the main threat would likely be further south, such an attack would not recognise borders. Setting up the networks and structures to counter such threats from scratch would be very costly and time-consuming. Scotland's £2.5bn budget already looks thin. Some sort of sharing deal looks possible. Throw in cyber-threats on top and there really does seem merit in pooling resources on this one. It's an area that we could all do more about.
Whatever side of the dotted lines rUK and Scottish oil and gas fields may eventually fall, they frequently share the same areas of the sea. A co-ordinated protection and response plan would seem to have a lot going for it. I understand foreign submarine activity is increasing in the far north. So, with a need to both protect the Trident base, a huge area of Scottish and rUK coastal waters and the north sea oil and gas fields, it's time for an MPA once more. There are shared interests here too.
Very remote risks? Am I being alarmist? I certainly hope so. But defence planning is about preparing for the unlikely as well as the foreseeable. While there may be many things that seem to be driving us apart, there are lots of shared interests too. After all, we will still be geographical neighbours for another few millennia, and it is in the interests of both countries to get on.
hertsman
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Sky Pirate
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?
I would have thought better of you Al !! Quote(I realise that but the Yes voters are either card-carrying members of the SNP, followers of the SNP or those who just bimble along in life letting others think and speak for them.) And what card do you carry Al or for that matter party do you follow, or are you just Bimbling along hoping for the best photo and speaking for others on your own behalf ?? I know it's none of my buisiness...... 
Sorry but that was a very low statement coming from a learned man like yourself if you don't mind me saying so.
Anyhoos what will be will be whatever way the final vote goes,
Hugh.
Sorry but that was a very low statement coming from a learned man like yourself if you don't mind me saying so.
Anyhoos what will be will be whatever way the final vote goes,
Hugh.
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Sky Pirate
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:12 pm
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?
chopperscot wrote:I know I know, but it made me laugh.
Indeed we will all look forward to being governed by those pair of hopefulls!!!!
Dumberous and DangerousHugh.
Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?
I carry an organ donor card Hugh so that anybody in the uk may benefit from what's left of me. I don't 'follow' any particular political party but agree with some policies from the majority of them.Sky Pirate wrote:I would have thought better of you Al !! Quote(I realise that but the Yes voters are either card-carrying members of the SNP, followers of the SNP or those who just bimble along in life letting others think and speak for them.) And what card do you carry Al or for that matter party do you follow, or are you just Bimbling along hoping for the best photo and speaking for others on your own behalf ?? I know it's none of my buisiness......
Sorry but that was a very low statement coming from a learned man like yourself if you don't mind me saying so.
Anyhoos what will be will be whatever way the final vote goes,
Hugh.
I probably do bimble along but I've taken early retirement and I have considered all the options in this debate to come to my own conclusion. I did add a caveat above to my statement (my bad) and I don't mind at all you voicing your opinion as that is mine. A dirty campaign is being fought by both sides and, in my opinion, especially by the Yes party.
And you should know Hugh - I don't hope for a good photo
Each one is carefully planned and executed with abnormal haste, panic and a great degree of lens shake - thank goodness for IS 
Al
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Sky Pirate
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?
Like your style Al...
Hugh.
Hugh.
Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?
Move along now, nothing to see here. A bit like Leuchars really.
Canon EOS1200D
Canon 18-55mm
Tamron 70-300mm
Tamron 150-600mm
Canon 18-55mm
Tamron 70-300mm
Tamron 150-600mm
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ythanpythan
- Posts: 381
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?
Can a mod change the title of this thread to 'RAF Lossiemouth after dependence' please? I don't think the future is much more certain this morning.
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