Russians occupy Crimea

[T_J]

Footage from Ukrainian Border Guard Service DA-42. Lazer and shots fired at DA-42.

http://dpsu.gov.ua/en/about/news/news_3510.htm



Ukrainian DA-42 at following link.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Ukraine- ... 1977901/L/

[RichC]

This stuff will rattle Russia's cages for years to come now they have got Crimea.
Ukraine will probably now, apply for NATO and will get membership. Which will cause more problems and tension than this itself

[Ronald Reagan]

Nothing the west does would surprise me Matt. They are on the losing side of history though, especially with Russia, China, India, Brazil, Iran along with others drawing ever closer together. The Washington regime has a unique ability through its arrogance to push other nations right into the hands of their enemies. (No negative reflection meant upon the American people, the insane policies of their leadership are not their fault and they are stuck with what is essentially a two party dictatorship which simply represents various vested interests and gives the illusion of a system that represents its people).

I think Britain should seek a new place in the world, to put our country and people first for once. We could build an alliance with Russia, China and India, the future powers of the world. One could add Brazil and Iran to that list to.

To seek a closer relationship with Russia would be a brilliant idea. In return for the energy supplies at a discounted cost which we could pass on to our own people we could for example reward the Russian's by allowing them to have military basing rights in our country, say one military airfield to house a combat wing and one port for navy vessels, troops etc. We could also make the same offer to China and India giving their forces easier access to this part of the world to balance out things. We could build ourselves a new and truly global alliance, to make Britain great again.

We could equip our air force with Russian types, possibly Chinese ones also. Russia and China have what we need. With offering them a true partner in Europe we could likely be well rewarded in financial terms, with resources, with military hardware. We could build a new world based upon peace and stability. Instead of relying on the failing and declining EU which is simply a regional player and puppet of Washington we could be part of a truly global alliance that is on the way to the top. Also we could move away from the pointless American led wars which have served no purpose at all.

We could also offer our full support to Russia and China at the UN Security Council and also push for full permanent membership on the UN Security Council for India.
To me our current alliances do not serve the best interests of this country or its people.

[hertsman]

RR, I admire a bit of left-field, lateral thinking. We occasionally find ourselves on the same side of some debates, but I'm afraid I have to part company with you on this one. Maybe you are being a little mischievous with your latest post, but I don 't think there is much future in a Anglo/Russo/Sino/Indo alliance. I'm afraid Russia is reverting to it's old ways under Putin and would be an unreliable partner.

I am more attracted to mattstratone's conspiracy theories in that there is nothing like a bogey-man and consequent arms race to keep the wheels of industry turning. What better way to get an the free-world's economies moving again? The 'peace dividend' that followed the USSR's collapse proved to be anything but a dividend. For years after, the West was unsure what to do when they had won and no longer had the 'evil empire' to spur on innovation and competition in the space and military fields. Bringing it back would get things moving along nicely, with just the overhanging threat of Armageddon to spoil the party. And all partly inspired by the EU whose desire to spread peace and harmony throughout the continent by bringing Ukraine into the fold has backfired somewhat. The law of unintended consequences at work again.

In a more sober mode, the economic and political repercussions of this crisis will rumble on. It may take a couple of years for East/West relations to become more cordial, and years more for relations to normalise, probably post-Putin. That depends on his eventual successor of course. Meantime, the scramble to reduce defence budgets does begin to look less and less a wise idea. It may also spur more energy resilience in Europe too as depending on Russia for this is equally unwise.

hertsman

[Ronald Reagan]

I always like and respect your balanced approach herstman. To me though its now the west that has sadly become the bad guys. The whole thing in Ukraine was in my opinion a western backed coup to take Ukraine from the Russian sphere of influence. I would like to distance this country from Washington. Right now it seems we are simply puppets of Washington, this image has given us an almost joke status around the world. Even the European nations are simply puppets.
I can see the Russian/Chinese alliance growing and as it does other nations will be pulled to it. I do not think the western nations have the money or will to reengage in a military rearmament programme. The US military for example is likely to undergo massive cuts in the coming years.
While what Russia has done in Crimea may not be technically right it appears to be what most people of Crimea want. Their territory was originally given away to Ukraine without them ever being consulted. While the so called authorities in Kiev themselves simply took power via mob rule and are not really legitimate. Each side is full of lies when it comes to Ukraine, the Kiev regime took power via a coup and the Crimea regional parliament has acted way out side of its powers. But if one part of the country can rise up and take over, then in my opinion its only right other parts can rise up to. I am hearing about rather brutal clampdowns in the east of Ukraine right now by the Kiev authorities. Talk about a total bunch of hypocrites considering the way they took power. The whole thing from start to finish is nothing but a western backed coup and seeing those fools William Vague and John Kerry spouting out the garbage they do is enough to make me sick.

The west is very lucky that so far Russia has only taken Crimea, that maybe all they take. They could just as easily take the whole eastern part of the country, they would likely have considerable support from the locals albeit less than in Crimea.

[paullangford]

Do you think the Russians will have "visa problems" in coming to Farnborough now, like the Russian Knights did in 2012 ? (if they were coming that is)

[Kodakman]

Nobody needs to be told that the Russian invasion of Krim (to give it its' propper name) is illegal. But this is quite possibly the thin end of the wedge. Putin clearly has a plan. Ukrainian televison has stated that Putin had the invasion of Ukraine formed six years ago. And no doubt his ultimate goal is to occupy more of Ukraine, and to connect mainland Russian with the separate Kalliningrad region.

It is such a shame as Krim is a wonderful holiday destination, with gorgeous beaches and a climate the same as the Mediterranean.

I have been to Ukraine more than 50 times, and to Krim several times. Sevastopol is a wonderful city with great views of the harbour and the Black Sea Fleet. Furthermore the Ukraine Navy base at Saki affords great views of the Beriev Be.12 "Mail" flying boats.

Anyone on this site who applauds the invasion by Russia is short sighted. Putin is a dangerous tyrrant, and history has shown many such despots, and the horrific way they treat their fellow man. Putin is just the next one in the queue.

Finally I have close relatives in Kiev. Therefore I do not expect to see any more rhetoric supporting tyrrany on this site.

Kodakman

[Ronald Reagan]

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/916 ... ike-fools/

[RichC]

Agree, kodakman.
Sadly however, all those aircraft currently sitting Crimea are now under Russian hands, on the news today it showed Russian forces taking claim to the Su-27s and various other aircraft along with the ships docked in Sevastapol.

[22A]

Nobody needs to be told that the Russian invasion of Krim (to give it its' propper name) is illegal. But this is quite possibly the thin end of the wedge. Putin clearly has a plan. Ukrainian televison has stated that Putin had the invasion of Ukraine formed six years ago. And no doubt his ultimate goal is to occupy more of Ukraine, and to connect mainland Russian with the separate Kalliningrad region.
Kodakman

They say history repeats itself,. These Russians demanding to be part of Russia again remind me of all those ethnic Germans living in the Sudetenland suddenly demanding to be part of Germany. Presumably Putin will now announce he has no more territorial demands.

[RichC]

I've never seen a man express no emotions or anything. Did you see Putin open both games? Really serious face, just managed to crack a smile. The same face for every event whether it is happy or sombre. He expresses no remorse, nothing. 100% anti-west even if we did something decent he would be against it.

[RichC]

But why shouldn't the EU support the uprising? It was of course the reason for the whole situation there now. The "majority" of Ukraine did not want influence from Russia any more, they were fed up with it. They wanted more ties with the EU and when the President said no, they protested. Then part of their country gets occupied, their military locked in their establishments and suddenly Crimea is part of Russia.... due to the minority of Ukraine wanting to stay Russian (and it is a minority).
Wouldn't surprise me now if Ukraine applies for NATO membership.

[Ronald Reagan]

The majority of western Ukrainians want closer links with Europe, not so much in the east. There are many places in the east that want nothing to do with Kiev.
Considering recent actions of the US and NATO our leaders have become the bad guys. The whole thing in Kiev was essentially a fake revolution instigated by Washington just like they have in so many other nations over the years, essentially a land grab to take Ukraine and add it to the expansionist European Union.
I think Putin is probably the best leader in the world, he now has approval ratings of 72%, most of my Russian friends liked him before, now even the ones who did not like him actually like him more and think he did the right thing over Crimea. I fully 100% support his actions. IF the people in east of Ukraine start being treated like dirt by Kiev then if he wishes to enter eastern areas of Ukraine so be it. In legal terms the lines on the map mean everything, in real terms those lines on the map mean very little in terms of the culture and population demographics of those areas.
Considering the utterly pointless wars which have led to the deaths of thousands and thousands that our nations have instigated in recent years our leaders have no moral right to talk. Basically the EU is a dangerous and expansionist creation, in effect a European empire. NATO itself has become a pointless and in my opinion dangerous organisation. During the cold war it made sense, but now considering the way its used I think not. Pushing NATO right up against the Russian borders will simply give them the enemy they need and cause them to rearm even more than they currently have. We should have left all of eastern Europe as a buffer zone between east and west instead of being so provocative and adding it to NATO.
I am glad the future of the world appears to be Chinese and Indian to be honest. If Russia is smart they will get ever closer to those two nations and possibly can help bind them together as they have a good relationship with both. Its an alliance that truly rival Washington and hopefully create a better more equal world. Much of the world is sick of western arrogance and the two faced double standards displayed by our politicians. The actions of our leaders will do us their people no long term good.

[RichC]

So in that case, nor does Russia. Invading Afghanistan, Chechnya and also Georgia and now Crimea. They seem to have a habit of re-occupying land that they lost since the Cold War ended or fully supporting nations which kill hundreds of thousands of their own people just because the "west" is trying to help them get sorted (Syria). So how can Putin be so different to Obama or George Bush?
Half, if not most of the countries that ended up in the Warsaw Pact didn't want to be in it, they were occupied by Russia which incorporated them into the Soviet Union. It was obvious when most of the countries jumped ship as fast as they could as soon as the Cold War ended. It wasn't forced upon them to join the EU or NATO, it was the case of "Sod Russia, sod it's leaders, sod its way of living, we want different". Those countries chose to be part of the EU or NATO.
In the case of Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, which is the minority of Ukraine, if they want to be Russian then they should sod off into Russia and leave the Ukraine. It shouldn't be the other way round of Russia occupying the Ukraine because "Russian speaking" people want to stay influenced by that country.
I applaud the fact that it was done by no aggression in the form of shooting and bombing (apart from the incident the other day) but it still shouldn't have happened.

As for Ukraine as a whole, it's the majority of Western, Southern (not including Crimea), Central and parts of Northern Ukraine that want more ties with the EU, It is only Crimea and Eastern Ukraine that does not purely because they are Russian speaking anyway.

[Ronald Reagan]

Rich, I agree with all you say about splitting Ukraine. I think the individual regions need to decide their own future. The west seems very much against this.

I think with things like Syria and Libya they were simply fake CIA created revolutions which then gained traction with certain sections of the population all done to give the west justification to attack etc. They have such a long history of this.

As for the EU and NATO, I as a Brit have never been given the choice of being able to vote on us being part of either. I would certainly vote to leave the EU and want to be no part of it, as for NATO I would probably vote to leave. The older generation were given the choice to vote over a simple trade deal with Europe, not ever being told it was intended to create a European country which sadly would be a puppet of Washington.
The truth is I don't think we can believe a world our political leaders say, if they say there is a reason for war then their reasons are likely bogus, their so called desire to get involved in things like Ukraine is simply to try to threaten Russia, Syria is about removing Assad as he is not a western puppet and basically seeing the country smashed apart and fragmented much like Libya.

Exporting Chaos: 'West spent $5 billion destabilizing Ukraine'
http://youtu.be/-2xBhpFi9JU

'US thinks rules are for inferior nations, it's in their DNA' - ex Australian PM
http://youtu.be/-4ozs-mZQf4

[RichC]

I do agree that we, the UK (and i state that as the Government, not the people) is held by strings from the US however we have in recent times stood fast in certain areas where the US have wanted us to go in but we didn't. It's changing somewhat, slowly.

With Syria, the people (civilians) expressly asked for help and were being killed for doing so under Assad, we (as a world) failed them wholly because Putin and China vetoed the decision. But that is what Putin does. Even if it is the right thing in some circumstances for military action, Putin will always veto it, even if i think he knows it is the right thing to do something. It seems he constantly wants to make a point if the decision he makes is correct or not.
With Crimea, notice how China abstained and did not support Russia this time? Surely that says something.

With Libya and of course Mali, The French took the lead, not the US. Libya was mainly a European affair with US help.

What i don't like and disagree on is the fact that the Russians did not/have not allowed the Ukrainian military freedom of their own country. They blocked in the military, blocked ships coming home from deployment and since this week have assaulted the ships in port and taking over the Ukrainian military bases along with taking the equipment and hardware. That hardware should be allowed to go to other Ukrainian bases. The Russians have illegally taken grasp over a huge number of vehicles, military aircraft and ships. It's not theirs, it's Ukrainian.

The latest (from BBC via AFP News):-
Pro-Russian protesters have stormed a Ukrainian naval base in western Crimea.
Several hundred unarmed protesters attacked the base at Novofedorivka, which is now under almost complete control of Russian forces.
Meanwhile, Ukrainian troops surrounded by Russian forces have been ordered to battle stations at Belbek airbase.
Russian forces, including snipers and armoured personnel carriers, have advanced and an ultimatum to surrender has just expired.

The Belbek base commander told the few dozen troops still there to shoot in the air if they were attacked.
He said he had been waiting for days for orders from Kiev but told the BBC still none had been issued.
Ukraine's military chiefs deny this, saying each unit in Crimea has been issued with clear orders on what to do if attacked.

[Ronald Reagan]

The trouble is Rich that in Ukraine the so called new government cannot even control its own country, they have virtually no power in certain areas as some people do not like or support them which is a position I admire.

As for Syria and Libya I feel it was not for the west to get involved. Libya in no way is better off now, it simply wrecked and a far more dangerous place than ever. I would love to know the real reasons for the intervention there. All I know is that its been a disaster.
With Syria I feel Assad has a regime which at least can look after the different ethnic groups, if he were to fall then certain groups could simply be wiped out.
I think the uprisings in both Libya and Syria were created and caused by western actions, ie they began in a false manner simply as a false justification for military action later. The west has a long history of it sadly.

Thanks for the update. Most interesting.
The Russian's might as well keep the equipment in Crimea as it could be considered Crimean and thus now Russian I guess.

One interesting point on RT today was the fate of Ukrainian military personnel from Crimea who are based in other parts of Ukraine and what their future will be. Some reports of them not being allowed to leave to go home.

Also I read a report that Israel is concerned about various anti Semitic attacks that have taken place in Kiev recently due to some of the far right groups there.

[Ronald Reagan]

Nationalist Rise: Israeli MPs express concerns for Jewish community in Ukraine
http://youtu.be/_ANZZyXROoM

[Ronald Reagan]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/david-m ... 33177.html

Brilliant piece by David Morrison, key bit is below where he goes into how the removal of Yanokovich was not legitimate.

It is simply untrue that the Rada followed the procedure laid down in the Ukrainian constitution to impeach and remove a president from power.

Article 108 of the constitution specifies four circumstances in which a president may cease to exercise power before the end of his term. Those are:
•resignation;
•inability to exercise his or her powers for reasons of health;
•removal from office by the procedure of impeachment;
•death.

The procedure for removal from office by impeachment is laid down in Article 111. It is not unlike that required for the impeachment and removal from power of a US president, which could take months.

Thus, Article 111 obliges the Rada to establish a special investigatory commission to formulate charges against the president, seek evidence to justify the charges and come to conclusions about the president's guilt for the Rada to consider. To find the president guilty, at least two-thirds of Rada members must assent.

Prior to a final vote to remove the president from power, the procedure requires
•the Constitutional Court of Ukraine to review the case and certify that the constitutional procedure of investigation and consideration has been followed, and
•the Supreme Court of Ukraine to certify that the acts of which the President is accused are worthy of impeachment.

To remove the president from power, at least three-quarters of Rada members must assent.

The Rada didn't follow this procedure at all. No investigatory commission was established and the Courts were not involved. On 22 February, the Rada simply passed a bill removing President Yanukovych from office.

Furthermore, the bill wasn't even supported by three-quarters of Rada members as required by Article 111 - it was supported by 328 members, when it required 338 (since the Rada has 450 members).

[thorny1a]

no need to panic, we're offering a typhoon deployment for Baltic air policing from late April !