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Another close call (Typhoon at Waddington)
Re: Another close call (Typhoon at Waddington)
The inevitable is going happen one of these days, why people continue to put themselves in what is obviously a dangerous area is beyond me, after all would the same people stand in the central reservation of the M6 or on the edge of the platform at Oxford Circus tube station.
Re: Another close call (Typhoon at Waddington)
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Re: Another close call (Typhoon at Waddington)
Just don't stand on the undershoot area johndilnot, one day there'll be someone killed doing this - it almost happened at Lossiemouth today.johndilnot wrote:you do get people who stand at the edge of a road watching rally cars, not sure why someone would want to stand in the central reservation,im an idiot who once stood in the approach,my previous post asked for advise on where to stand nearby,,no ones gave me any,many here are far to quick to have a go
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The Phantom
- Posts: 3727
- Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:16 pm
Re: Another close call (Typhoon at Waddington)
With regards to standing under the flightpath area, i can understand why people do it - be it a unique photo or just for the thrill of it. But it is definitely a dangerous thing to do which could result in tragedy one day. If you're the one standing there, it only has to go wrong once!
Re: Another close call (Typhoon at Waddington)
Guys , a couple of operational points [ leaving out whether viewing is sensible or not ] . Never been military , but 40 yrs of civil from 1 eng piston 'thro T/props to 2nd biggest 4 jet and back to 1eng's.
A low approach always seems to lead to a long landing , the flare floats you forever . So if you dip low at last minute , that's what the recovery does .As a lad F-104s always seemed to make shallow approaches , much more than any other types . If your type can do it a steeper approach at correct speed can lead to a shorter landing .
Putting a big fence at the threshold could be making the turbulence and downdrafts on short finals worse . Flying past The Old Man of Hoy [ Orkney ] at 500' [ the stack and seacliffs are 1100' ] in a 40 kt Westerly is smooth . But a 5 kt Easterly is as rough as old boots , and that's in a 23 tonne a/c .
Updrafts on windward sides are smooth , downdrafts on leeward sides are turbulent and rough, even in light airs .
Allied with that are hot thermals from roads / carparks etc . Short finals at Gatwick rwy 26 with any sun always gives an updraft at the last minute [ needs wrestling even in a 250 tonne a/c ], as you fly over the carpark .
Put those 2 together and on that hot day with SW breeze . It would be possible to get uplift over the road , but 50 - 100 yds downwind [ where the Tiffy seems to sink ] a mini microburst may be occuring , giving sink . And if aiming for the very end of Rwy [ not normal 3degree touchdown point ] then there will be NO margin for any deviations on approach angle / speed . First a/c may have missed these bubbles of air [ not a constant stream , more bubbles as in a kettle boiling ] , 2nd or 3rd might catch it . Funnily enough when it's a nice day with no hassles , a nice relaxed operation can lead to an untidy arrival . When it's bad wx, short of gas , things broke , wife down 't back , pressure's on , subconsciously you up the game and it's tidy . But a bad approach never leads to a good landing !
I learned my lesson as a 16 year old on an hot summers day at West Raynham departure end . Stood on an embankment just to one side of of Rwy end , pair of 54th's finest Hunter FGA9 s , fully loaded , the 2nd breathing the 1st's hot gasses launched with the barrier up ! The 1st just about climbed over the barrier , 2nd was not able to, so he banked off to one side to go round it ...... luckily I was young with fast reactions , but gravel rash and nettle stings hit home the lesson that '' things happen '' in aviation ! And yes the pilot may have seen me on t/o [ shallow nose up attitude on Hunters ] , but I've Never had capacity to see spectators on very short finals when landing , takes all my capacity to take in , airspeed , power [ gauge and throttle position ] , attitude , rwy , rwy aspect , rate of descent [ VSI ] and don't forget bottom feeling [ 1 tonne or 250 you can feel it ] and rate of change of all those .
Hope that might explain some what and whys , 'tho a glider guider might be able to explain better the behaviour of air .
Atb dave f .
A low approach always seems to lead to a long landing , the flare floats you forever . So if you dip low at last minute , that's what the recovery does .As a lad F-104s always seemed to make shallow approaches , much more than any other types . If your type can do it a steeper approach at correct speed can lead to a shorter landing .
Putting a big fence at the threshold could be making the turbulence and downdrafts on short finals worse . Flying past The Old Man of Hoy [ Orkney ] at 500' [ the stack and seacliffs are 1100' ] in a 40 kt Westerly is smooth . But a 5 kt Easterly is as rough as old boots , and that's in a 23 tonne a/c .
Updrafts on windward sides are smooth , downdrafts on leeward sides are turbulent and rough, even in light airs .
Allied with that are hot thermals from roads / carparks etc . Short finals at Gatwick rwy 26 with any sun always gives an updraft at the last minute [ needs wrestling even in a 250 tonne a/c ], as you fly over the carpark .
Put those 2 together and on that hot day with SW breeze . It would be possible to get uplift over the road , but 50 - 100 yds downwind [ where the Tiffy seems to sink ] a mini microburst may be occuring , giving sink . And if aiming for the very end of Rwy [ not normal 3degree touchdown point ] then there will be NO margin for any deviations on approach angle / speed . First a/c may have missed these bubbles of air [ not a constant stream , more bubbles as in a kettle boiling ] , 2nd or 3rd might catch it . Funnily enough when it's a nice day with no hassles , a nice relaxed operation can lead to an untidy arrival . When it's bad wx, short of gas , things broke , wife down 't back , pressure's on , subconsciously you up the game and it's tidy . But a bad approach never leads to a good landing !
I learned my lesson as a 16 year old on an hot summers day at West Raynham departure end . Stood on an embankment just to one side of of Rwy end , pair of 54th's finest Hunter FGA9 s , fully loaded , the 2nd breathing the 1st's hot gasses launched with the barrier up ! The 1st just about climbed over the barrier , 2nd was not able to, so he banked off to one side to go round it ...... luckily I was young with fast reactions , but gravel rash and nettle stings hit home the lesson that '' things happen '' in aviation ! And yes the pilot may have seen me on t/o [ shallow nose up attitude on Hunters ] , but I've Never had capacity to see spectators on very short finals when landing , takes all my capacity to take in , airspeed , power [ gauge and throttle position ] , attitude , rwy , rwy aspect , rate of descent [ VSI ] and don't forget bottom feeling [ 1 tonne or 250 you can feel it ] and rate of change of all those .
Hope that might explain some what and whys , 'tho a glider guider might be able to explain better the behaviour of air .
Atb dave f .
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rh226
Re: Another close call (Typhoon at Waddington)
Yes, things do happen on take-off as well..condor wrote: I learned my lesson as a 16 year old on an hot summers day at West Raynham departure end . Stood on an embankment just to one side of of Rwy end , pair of 54th's finest Hunter FGA9 s , fully loaded , the 2nd breathing the 1st's hot gasses launched with the barrier up ! The 1st just about climbed over the barrier , 2nd was not able to, so he banked off to one side to go round it ...... luckily I was young with fast reactions , but gravel rash and nettle stings hit home the lesson that '' things happen '' in aviation !
Just remember the (civil) HS.125 at Dunsfold on 20/11/75. Flock of birds was ingested by the engines immediately after getting airborne, pilot (HS Chief Test Pilot, John "Cats Eyes" Cunningham) tried to land back on runway, crashed, plane continued through boundary hedge and took out a passing car on the A281 along with all six people in it.
Imagine the carnage if that happened at an airshow. Ramstein 1988 was a lot worse as the aircraft and debris continued into where spectators were supposed to be, but we don't even want it to happen to those who have no appreciation of safety and are viewing where it is potentially dangerous.
Enough said by me.
Re: Another close call (Typhoon at Waddington)
Does anyone remember the 29 Sqn Phantom (XV436/E) that "landed" at Coningsby and kept going.............through the fence at the New York end, over the road and ended-up in the field ?
I've always said that lurking at the undershoot and overshoot ends are very dangerous and stupid, info on the incident here :- http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=82620
I've always said that lurking at the undershoot and overshoot ends are very dangerous and stupid, info on the incident here :- http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=82620
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rh226
Re: Another close call (Typhoon at Waddington)
And not forgetting Hunter GA.11 WV381/732 (762 NAS) at Lee-on-Solent on 01/11/1972.
Aborted take-off due to instrument malfunction, pilot ejected (and survived despite seat not being zero/zero!!) when he realised that the aircraft would overrun runway. It did, went through fence, across road and "beach" and ended up in the Solent.
I'm sure that there were quite a few other occasions. Don't know if this should be continued here, but it does have some relevance by highlighting take-off accidents that involve the fence at the end of a runway – Mods please advise.
Aborted take-off due to instrument malfunction, pilot ejected (and survived despite seat not being zero/zero!!) when he realised that the aircraft would overrun runway. It did, went through fence, across road and "beach" and ended up in the Solent.
I'm sure that there were quite a few other occasions. Don't know if this should be continued here, but it does have some relevance by highlighting take-off accidents that involve the fence at the end of a runway – Mods please advise.
Re: Another close call (Typhoon at Waddington)
Oh gosh this is still going..... 
So he was a bit lower than normal, but still not as low as the German F-4Fs.!
As a local yellowbelly I should just mention that in 1984 a 228 OCU Phantom crew did take to the silk courtesy of Martin Baker on finals to this very runway at Waddington, Spencer Flacks Sea Fury came down in the landing lights the other side of the A15 in August 1981 and burnt out and at least one Canberra has come a cropper on finals too.
And for those that really have yet to get the message this isn't a clever thing to do
AFM once ran a story in write offs about the Kenyan F-5 that crashed, the pilot might have got out but the youth sitting on the fence wasn't quite so lucky...Having been sliced in half.
TS
So he was a bit lower than normal, but still not as low as the German F-4Fs.!
As a local yellowbelly I should just mention that in 1984 a 228 OCU Phantom crew did take to the silk courtesy of Martin Baker on finals to this very runway at Waddington, Spencer Flacks Sea Fury came down in the landing lights the other side of the A15 in August 1981 and burnt out and at least one Canberra has come a cropper on finals too.
And for those that really have yet to get the message this isn't a clever thing to do
AFM once ran a story in write offs about the Kenyan F-5 that crashed, the pilot might have got out but the youth sitting on the fence wasn't quite so lucky...Having been sliced in half.
TS