Bad Reporting - Red Arrows Crash

[XPLUMBER]

Would you like to borrow an "n"?

[Tiger Tim]

Thanks Xplumber

[MacksAviation]

Now I might be talking complete B KS but I have a feeling that the photo in question has been doctored......

I have just been looking at various videos and my own Red Arrow photos of which I have many........ I can't find one photo that has a strobe in it during a display or even landing sequence.

I also can't find a video of the aircraft strobing during a display which if you think about makes perfect sense, flying in that close proximity the last thing you want is a ruddy great strobe flashing and distracting you....

This video is in pretty poor light/evening and if they did strobe would show up perfectly especially during the take off sequence..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG3JEXLZelA

I don't mind being proved wrong however......

[Malcolm]

The important thing here is that ANY and ALL photographs of the final (few 10's of) seconds of Red 4's flight are supplied PROMPTLY to the AIB. I'm not sure selling them to the Press, and then the press taking credit for giving them to AIB counts as PROMPTLY in my view. I would hope the photographer contacted the RAF/MOD, and arranged to supply the photos directly. The AIB can then consider the photos and make judgments if the information in them reveal anything new/important. Given that the BBC were filming the Reds at BOH, I really really hope they caught the arrival on tape, since their optical gear is better than most of us spotters.

The gutter press will always speculate, and there will always be people (anoracks - i.e. US) that can quickly point out any holes in the press story. But I'll wager most of us were glue to the TV on Saturday afternoon watching/listening to the unfolding news, with our fingers firmly crossed, hopiing for the best, but fearing the worst. Most of us will have come to our own 'instant' conclusions based on the evidence presented - I know I did - and I expect if a reporter had shoved a microphon in my face I'd have blurted out some theory or other.

The point is we don't have all the evidence, and what's important is that the AIB get as much first hand information as possible.

RIP Red 4.

[Malcolm]

I don't mind being proved wrong however......

I don't know if its standard operating procedure for the Reds to have their strobes on or off during the display. However, the duration of the strobe flash is very short, much shorter than a typical camera shutter is open. Therefore, if the strobe flashes once a second, and you're shooting with a 1/1000's shutter speed, then there is a one in one thousand chance of capturing the strobe in your picture. Nine Red's in the frame, so about a 1 in 110 chance of one of them being caught. The slower the shutter speed, the more chance of catching one.

Therefore, I don't see whats wrong with these comments (other than he shouldn't be speculating to the press)...

"But a retired former wing commander, who also declined to be named, said the most likely explanation for the light was that it was a strobe light, fitted on all aircraft as an anti-collision device.

He added: ‘These lights can be easily triggered by mistake in the cockpit.’"

I take that to mean that the strobes can easily be turned on or off from inside cockpit.

[scanman]

This "story" is now on Sky - http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16056204" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Who say the photo was taken 30 secs before the crash......................... as if

[scanman]

Like Macksaviation something about the photo has hit me as wrong. Mostly the lack of smoke, which the Reds would normally have while in this formation. But this is via going through things (arrivals,departures and displays) in my head.

But having now looked at videos of the 8 landing at Bournemouth on Saturday, the clould cover in that photo do not match up with the clould cover (blue skies, hardly no cloud) in the videos, I am even more suspicious. Not saying it has been doctored, but doubting it is from Bournemouth Airport, at least on Saturday.

Edit - Having now watched more videos etc I am even more convinced that photo is not from Bournemouth as RAFAT approached to break and land.

[Mike]

Like Macksaviation something about the photo has hit me as wrong. Mostly the lack of smoke, which the Reds would normally have while in this formation. But this is via going through things in my head.

But having now looked at videos of the 8 landing at Bournemouth on Saturday, the clould cover in that photo do not match up with the clould cover (blue skies, hardly no cloud) in the videos, I am even more suspicious. Not saying it has been doctored, but doubting it is from Bournemouth Airport, at least on Saturday.

As far as I know the Reds have only enough diesel and dye to produce 7 minutes of smoke during each display. A full display is around 28 minutes so they only use smoke 25% of the time.

If that photo in the Sun is genuine then it was taken from Bournemouth sea-front, not at the airport (they used white smoke during their run 'n break to land anyway).

I've seen the Reds loads of times(even when they had Gnats !), have never seen the Hawks use strobes during a display - there's no need, is there ?

[scanman]

I agree there is no need for strobes during a display. But that story gives the impression it was as they approached the airport. As you said they used white smoke (The video the BBC showed of Jon dropping away shows this) so this goes against what the story/ the person who supplied it is trying to get everyone to think.

I am yet to find a full video of the display from Saturday to see if a strobe can be seen. But again the lack of smoke concerns me, even if in fact it is from the display. The Big Vixen is used as an arrival or rolling formation. And apart from a few seconds as they move into the next formation there is smoke being deployed, either all white or red, blue and white (dependant on when it is done).

Edit - Just watched a section of Saturday's display and if that photo was taken then, I can see no strobe, having watched them in Big Vixen during the display over and over again.

[XPLUMBER]

Gentlemen, STROBES are used continuosly, from start up to shut down, usually the bright conditions mean that you don't see them, but they are there and blinking away!

[steve149c]

Indeed yes, we've all seen strobes in photos from takeoff, low level and approach, it is part of the Caravans check at the threshold - many a valley student has been told he is flashing red (night) when he is supposed to be on White.

[scanman]

Incorrect they are not used from start up to shut down .

Petty I know,but they are generally used from turning onto the active, then switched off when turning off the active

However the Reds turn them off for displays due to how close they are to each other.

[XPLUMBER]

I bow to your superior knowledge, but thought that it was aviation law that strobes were active during flight, they are normally switched to red whilst on the ground to protect the groundcrews eyes!

[Mike]

Isn't the "Big Vixen" formation used at the very start of each display - it was in June when I last saw them ?

A poor photo of them at the start of their Lossiemouth display................



Does anyone have a shot of a Red's display with a strobe ?

EDIT :- Have just seen Scanman's post - thanks for confirming.

[Hurn]

But having now looked at videos of the 8 landing at Bournemouth on Saturday, the clould cover in that photo do not match up with the clould cover (blue skies, hardly no cloud) in the videos, I am even more suspicious. Not saying it has been doctored, but doubting it is from Bournemouth Airport, at least on Saturday.

Can't vouch for the validity of the picture but there was still cloud around on Saturday when the Reds came back to land and the formation is the same as they used on approach to Hurn on Saturday.
(They often come in flying in diamond formation and loop and break over the airfield but on Saturday opted for Vixen with a straight run and break)

I also have a picture I quickly snapped of one going overhead as it turned back in to land and while there's blue sky there's also cloud in it too.


With regards to strobes, I remember a couple of years ago the Reds coming back from an evening display at Cowes. It was a dark, gloomy and cloudy evening with poor light and they all had their strobes on flashing away while in formation.
It really was quite a sight.

[scanman]

Yes it is sometimes an arrival formation at times, depends on local layout. Still trying to find a full display video to see if they arrived in BV or just did it during their display.

Red 4 has been caught with his strobe on here http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=36423" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; this is from Bournemouth Airport, Saturday (same as the sun's pic), nice sky (unlike the photo in the sun), white smoke (unlike the sun).

Edit - Hard to tell what (from the video I have just found) formation they arrived at the Air Fest in but they were trailing red,white and blue

[deerhunter]

We`ve had a thread ....what we like.....also what we dont like.......heres two of my dislikes (pertinent to this thread)

1) Speculation
2) The Sun,,,,,,,,,, its not absorbent enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hurn]

Yes it is sometimes an arrival formation at times, depends on local layout. Still trying to find a full display video to see if they arrived in BV or just did it during their display.

Red 4 has been caught with his strobe on here http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=36423" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; this is from Bournemouth Airport, Saturday (same as the sun's pic), nice sky (unlike the photo in the sun), white smoke (unlike the sun).

Edit - Hard to tell what (from the video I have just found) formation they arrived at the Air Fest in but they were trailing red,white and blue

The smoke wouldn't have gone on until they were over the airfield. If the photog was at the end of the runway watching them approach then they wouldn't have had smoke on.

As for the cloud, I can tell you it was patchy all weekend. There were areas of clear blue sky and areas with a lot of cloud cover.
Knowing what the weather was like here, I certainly couldn't say that the picture wasn't taken from around the airport.

[scanman]

Having watched videos of the first half of Saturdays display, I can rule out it was taken there in my mind.

Regarding the cloud cover at the airport I am only going on all the videos and photographs I have been looking at of them approaching, breaking and then 8 landing that are available. None of them have any cloud in the background similar to in that photo is all I am saying. Having watched videos of both Friday's arrival back and Saturday's arrival back, Saturday seemed alot more clearer than Friday.

Either way is it really important when it was taken? (and I say this after watching videos over and over to try and find out ) We all know it is a strobe light.

[Mike]

http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic. ... 23#p365564

4th image down

Scanman has already mentioned that link ( last post on page 2 ).