RAF plans huge cuts in planes and bases

[Matt]

I've sat here and quietly read this thread over the past few weeks and agreed with pretty much everything thats been said. I've waited to hear the proposals and now i want to add my tuppence.....

Where do you start hey? Well i'm 30 years old so I can't really comment on modern era politics but i'm old enough to know that since 1997 this country has sequentially deteriorated with every year Labour has governed. It's been one discrace after another.

Lets list a few major things we have Labour to thank for;

Iraq War & WMD
poor old David Kelly RIP
Afganistan War
Massive financial debt (for many years to come)
Millenium Dome
Continuing uncontrolled immigration
'bury the bad news' post 9/11
NHS failing badly
Selling our gold reserves
EU Treaty
Paying for children that don't even live here
and so on........

Now i'm not naive enough to think that other political parties would be faultless but come on, this is a joke outfit. That Blair and his lackey Brown should be strung up for the crimes they've committed on this once 'Great Britain'!

Back on topic and so today's announcement...base closures and cutbacks. These were made by our DEFENCE Secretary. I think he needs to re-read his job title. Surely the main element of his 'job' must be to ensure the proper and secure defence of the UK. How the hell can we defend ourselves with some extra (Neil) Chinooks and a few armoured vehicles? Any potential aggressor must be laughing at us right now. Wouldn't take long to devise an attack would it. Take out the three or four runways left at the remaining bases, jump on a P&O ferry from Calais and stroll up to Westminster!

I'm sure that there will be a few on here that disagree with my comments and are avid Labour supporters but i have no apologies! Read the press, walk the streets....this country is

Rant over!

PS. Petition signed

[andrewn]

A pretty nonsensical collection of cuts, the full implications of which won't be obvious for some time yet.

No logic whatsoever in canning Nimrod but keeping Kinloss open, when we all know that IF MRA4 enters service it will go to Waddington - quite obviously a political decision to help get Labour through the next election. Likewise the decision to close Cottesmore and relocate to Wittering makes no sense whatsoever. Wittering is already pretty full with non-flying units and all the depth support for JFH is at Cott and as they've stated that Harrier OSD of 2018 will come forward I just can't see this move happening. There's little or no overall saving here as the "plan" stands and my guess is it's SHAR relocation mk2, i.e. no relocation just retirement.

Likewise no real long term view on the Tornado GR4's survivability suffice the desire to consolidate onto 2 FJ types - basically doesn't look too good for GR4 I would say.

Difficult to work out the full implications for the RAF/RN/AAC Helicopter forces but I can wager that by the time all the types mentioned have been pensioned off early there'll likely be an overall decrease in asset numbers. Not quite sure how this squares with the much publicised capability increases in this area?

Would all have been a little more palatable with some serious commitment to Typhoon along the lines of full T3 purchase and an extra AD and swing role squadron or two. Sadly lacking though.

As others have mentioned on various forum, it's all about achieving short term financial savings and nothing whatsoever to do with defence needs now or in the future.

[Richard B]

Why not shut down and scrap all our training aircraft .
do away with all the Hawks Tucanos Grobs etc. we do not need them if we are going to get rid of the Tornados and Harriers in a few years time.
hang on to the current pilots we have on these types

Typhoon can be learnt in a Sim and the F35 flys its self, so a bit of Sim training is all that is requierd.
subcontract any other training for the larger types could be done at a civvy training outlet.

Had a feeling that they would keep Wittering over Cotts even thou Cotts is the better base,
but hey, the base as just over the last few years had millions spent on it, so as from past thinking if money is spent on it then its doomed.
money wasteing is the preffered thinking allways as been.
in the end it will cost more then what they are planning on saving and end up with a lot less.

Cotts as the hangars and facilities to support the Harrier Wittering does not. should have just moved the Wittering birds over to Cotts and
used them for spares.

why do the Wittering Harriers fly into Cotts for service and upgrades etc. what will happen when its shut.

Just proves also that these measure are for funding to keep our troops in the desert for many years to come,
when the goverment are allways saying we will be pulling out next year.

So with all the cuts to get some money to spend on Helicopters that we will not see in action for at least 3 years.
and the troops on the ground needing the gear yesterday,
it looks like they will still be i the desert for at least another 3+ years without the gear they need.

The cuts are not going to do any good or be of any benifit to our troops on the ground in the near future . long term yes maybe, but we are being told they will not be there very long.

H.M.P Cottesmore as a ring to it thou.

[HighlandSniper]

Wasting your vote will achieve nothing whatsoever as the result won't be changed, there has to be a better option than what we have suffered since 1997 - I'm not suggesting how you vote, just don't waste it.

[Figure8]

I think we just have to eventually accept that this small nation is virtually bankrupt financially so we are going to have to face up to the fact that we simply can't afford all this hardware. Don't get me wrong I will be heartbroken when we finally have just a few training aircraft, some helicopters and a few transport and tanker aircraft and a single front line type, hardly a great scenario for spotting is it?

I just have to give thanks that at the age of 54 I have had the pleasure of seeing so many different types of aircraft in my lifetime, I feel sorry for the next generation who will see far fewer types which is bound to erode their interest in the long term.

I blame it on the risk takers in the financial sector, not so much the government. The treasury will have to try and balance the books or the s..t will really hit the fan and we'll have more serious things to worry about with civil unrest than what we give the armed forces.

Enjoy it while you can for the moment!

[Sheff]

Think we've already covered most of this in previous posts. Wittering will doubtless stay-on longer because there are other units based there which will have to be re-located first before that base can be declared redundant. The notion of re-locating from Cottesmore is a bit of a red herring. I doubt if there will be much re-location as such, rather a simple reduction in the Harrier fleet and a consolidation at Wittering until the entire fleet can be disposed of. It's my guess that in next year's Defence Review, the whole Harrier fleet will be dumped and then Wittering will also be up for closure.

As for scrapping training requirements, that's obviously not an option because simulation cannot replicate flying experience. Flying a simulator is fine for learning procedures but without the experience of real-time motion and sensations, you can't learn to fly and fight. But with a much-reduced front line, the training requirement will obviously be much smaller. As has been said, flying training will almost inevitably be concentrated at Valley with a small fleet of new Hawks and a new trainer to replace the Tucano eventually. Although it's been suggested that 100 Sqn may also move to Valley, I suspect that their tasks will simply be partially abandoned and the rest contracted-out and the Hawks will be withdrawn - they will be out of hours in a few years in any case.

The issue of whether the Red Arrows are worth financing has effectively been forgotten now, partly because of the political unpopularity of any attempt to get rid of the team. The best guess is that the team will simply carry-on at Waddington until their Hawks run out of hours in a few years, at which stage it will obviously be an easy decision to scrap the team, when there are no aircraft available with which to equip them. The BBMF is another matter. They are also politically sensitive of course but they probably survive because their operating costs are relatively low. But I'm sure we will eventually reach a stage where someone suggests that a new civilian partnership is set-up so that much of the financial responsibility can be shifted from the defence budget. Personally, I don't think that would be such a bad idea as I don't think there's even the slightest risk of any of the BBMF aircraft becoming grounded even if the RAF didn't operate them - directly or otherwise.

The helicopter issue is quite comical. The new Chinooks will arrive at a time when we will hopefully be in the process of pulling-out from Afghanistan (we might even have left completely by then if public opinion doesn't change drastically). Clearly, it's simply a political gesture to give the impression that the Government is doing all it can to support "the mission" (whatever that is). It's also a shameless example of spin doctoring which has been used to imply that the new round of cuts has been implemented in order to pay for the Chinooks. Of course the Chinook buy is simply a cover to take attention from the huge cuts which have been made. As predicted, the media (even the BBC) have fallen for it, and everyone is busy spouting the "Government buys new equipment but makes cuts in order to pay for it" line... absolute nonsense, it's just a cover for wholesale cuts being made elsewhere. It's been mentioned that the Chinooks will partially replace other helicopters (Sea Kings were mentioned) but the Pumas will doubtless go too, so as has been said, we'll probably end-up with fewer helicopter assets rather than more.

The Nimrod saga is the most shameful story of all and yet the dumb media has almost ignored it. Immediate withdrawal (almost) leaves us with no ASW/SAR aircraft until the MRA4 arrives. I fail to see how the current order could be reduced still further. When one takes into account operations and serviceability, with fewer aircraft we may as well not bother having any MRA4's at all. The more disturbing aspect of this "scrap now and buy later" concept is that it will doubtless encourage the use of a similar approach elsewhere. The obvious risk is that the Tornado GR4 fleet will go the same way next year. With one squadron gone, it seems more than likely that a decision will be made next year to dispose of the remaining GR4's and leave us to rely on Typhoon until a new aircraft (probably a UAV) is developed.

As I've already said, this process will not stop until only the Typhoon fleet remains. It's the logical conclusion of the Government's policy. Not that there's any logic involved in this saga at all.

[RichC]

Are we the only country in this current climate of mass terrorism and currently fighting a conflict that is slashing defence like theres no tomorrow? (literally).

Anyone up for leading a revolt?

[dunmailbiffa17]

Around the time the announcement was being made about the Harrier and Tornado GR4, Harrier ZG 480 4 SQN Screamed past me at Dunmail Raise LFA17 with a superb low level pass flown by a calibre of pilot second to none with absolute skill and bravery in a gem of a combat aircraft,followed shortly after by 2 GR4's from 41 sqn doing exactly the same,and yet down in London their futures are decided by the most dangerous and inept government in this once great county's history,dangerous because now the ability for us to defend ourselves and are interests is disappearing fast with one hell of a capability gap and this is just the start because if this lot get in again we are finished.

[Sheff]

climate of mass terrorism and currently fighting a conflict

Interesting that you say that. It's a pity that Gordy Brown never quite grasps how the latter is a direct result of the former... but that the former is also a direct result of the latter. I suspect he's too stupid to have realised that though.

[RichC]

I pity the poor sods who are not within the 50%:-
"An improved "close combat equipment package" with "state of the art" body armour and night vision goggles being made available to 50% more troops"

We should have available armour for EVERY soldier in theatre even those inside the camps to limit shrapnel from rockets or mortars.

[benyboy]

news BBC 2 now

[Blackcat1]

And on the same day another 2 British soliders killed by a suicide bomber, 102!!!!!

[Mike]

And on the same day another 2 British soliders killed by a suicide bomber, 102!!!!!

That's 102 this year,isn't it ?

[Blackcat1]

Not sure, can anyone confirm?

Thanks

[HighlandSniper]

Sadly it is correct.

[Vulcanone]

....

[gonk]

Now its official and blatantly obvious that labour is bent on destroying the military, and in the minds of our glorious leaders we will not need the harrier in future conflicts, the only strike aircraft we have that can operate anywhere, look what the peace loving Iranians are playing with now,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 415489.stm

Isn't this a sign that the MOD government should rethink there disastrous policies, that whole area is a tinder box, oil being the main concern ,and if that is affected we all know the consequences, tyrants only listen to the threat of force.

[RichC]

So what do we have now then:-

What we are losing:-

1. Two Squadrons of Tornado/Harriers to go in the next few years
2. One Squadron of Harriers to go as soon as possible
3. Cottesmore to Close
4. Every Nimrod to be scrapped by March 2010
5. No replacement for the Nimrod for several years which includes no SAR Top Cover for several years
6. Nimrod MRA4 to be slashed in the number of airframes for the third time
7. HMS Roebuck to be scrapped
8. RN Seaking HC4's to be scrapped as soon as possible and replaced by the RAF Merlin HC3 (Big Rumour)
9. Tornado F3 to be scrapped
10. Some VC-10s to be scrapped shortly still without replacements. Our Tanker fleet is on its last legs with little airframes now.
11. Thousands of Military and Civilian jobs to be cut in a time when finding a job is almost impossible in some areas of the UK
12. RAF Lyneham to be closed
Any more?

What we gain:-

1. JSF is to go ahead but in smaller numbers
2. Typhoon to go through the air-ground proving tests as soon as possible and without any delays (to replace the Harriers and some of the Tornados)
3. 1 x C-17A instead of the rumoured two or three more we were getting but no more C-130Js to replace the ones lost in theatre (rumoured to be 5 on order)
4. 22 x Chinooks
5. Lynx Wildcat in much reduced numbers

So if you look at this way.... right.
Brown was told to give us more helicopters. Now look through the numbers:-
We are scrapping the Lynx AH7's and Scrapping the Gazelles (not many left now), scrapping the Pumas, scrapping the Navy Lynx, Scrapping the Seaking Mk4s.

So, the big rumour is, the RAF Merlins will be moving in to Yeovilton to replace the Seaking HC4s
Much reduced numbers of Lynx Wildcat (what is it now, 60?) to replacewell over a hundred Lynx and Gazelles (combined).

So...
The RAF lose their Merlins to the Royal Navy
The Wildcat replaced just a third of the current Lynx and Gazelle combination
We lose the Puma with no replacement on order
We lose the SAR seakings going to civilian contract

If my calculations are correct, we will have FAR LESS helicopters than we currently have now... even with the introduction of the 22 new Chinooks.
So how is Brown getting away with this? He thinks that getting 22 new Chinooks on order makes it look like we are getting more helicopters when in actual fact he is scrapping two thirds more than we are replacing.

[HighlandSniper]

Brown/Ainsworth don't know/don't understand/don't care - all that matters to them is saving money. Practicalities are irrelevant, and lives jeoporised just don't matter despite what they say.

Brown/Ainsworth speak with forked tongue.

There is only one option open to us, to put the "X" in the appropriate box in May/June 2010.

[Sheff]

As I said previously it's classic spin doctoring which the media fell for. Brilliant presentation though, and the media all happily ran the line that we were "buying more helicopters" but that cuts would have to be made to pay for them. Of course, journalists (now that they mostly have the skills of kids on work experience schemes) were too lazy/stupid to look at the story in more detail and spot the very obvious truth that the ultimate result will be fewer helicopters but huge cuts made elsewhere in any case.

They "got away with it" because the media is too stupid to know any better. But the same scam isn't going to work next year when we have the Defence Review. But by then we will have a new Government and making deep cuts in defence spending will not concern the electorate one way or the other, so we can be pretty certain that it will be a major target for cost savings. An awful lot of money has got to be found somewhere and with things like health and education "ring fenced", it is the less-sensitive areas that are easy political targets and defence is a favourite. The typical voter hasn't got a clue about defence - they care barely work-out the functions of how to vote on X Factor, and explaining that we no longer have a credible defence ability wouldn't mean a thing to most people. So you have to conclude that because of the sorry mess that Brown has got this country into, defence will be one of the major casualties. Just a sad fact of life.

As for your list Razor, it will be much longer after the Defence Review. The remainder of the Harrier fleet will almost certainly be dumped and it wouldn't be a surprise if the rest of the Tornado GR4 fleet goes too. It's pretty clear that the ultimate aim is to have just two types - Typhoon and F-35 but I fear that this notion is going to backfire, as the chances of F-35 surviving long enough to reach service entry must be very,very slim. More bases will go too, probably including either Odiham or Benson, Linton, Kinloss ("mothballing" is another scam which will not last), Scampton, Leeming, either Lossie or Marham, and Wittering. I don't think Yeovilton is entirely secure either now that there's a growing appetite for concentrating helicopter assets at Culdrose. Like I keep saying, the best thing to do if you're an aircraft enthusiast, is buy a house near Brize or Coningsby - you're on pretty safe territory there!