Defence Spending

[roughcutter]

Lose those two 'White elephant' carriers, that would certainly be a massive saving. We're not an empire any more, do we really need them? Complete folly imho

[TonyO]

Lose those two 'White elephant' carriers, that would certainly be a massive saving. We're not an empire any more, do we really need them? Complete folly imho

Yes...this all the way...

[warthog81]

Lose those two 'White elephant' carriers, that would certainly be a massive saving. We're not an empire any more, do we really need them? Complete folly imho

I agree 100%. I wish they had never been ordered. If they had not been ordered we would almost certainly have had F-35A instead of F-35B which in my opinion is a more useful aircraft. Hopefully if that had been planned from day one we would also have tankers that could refuel the F-35A along with the various other US types we operate.

[cat1]

Lose those two 'White elephant' carriers, that would certainly be a massive saving. We're not an empire any more, do we really need them? Complete folly imho

Amen.

We were trying to recreate the Harrier situation where we had Ark Royal for jets and Ocean for Helis.

Now, as you say, we have two white elephants, hardly enough jets and pilots to use them and we sold Ocean to Brazil (which took forever to complete).

Irrelevant of that party you support, parliament as a whole has totally screwed Defence spending up.

How much could we get for selling both the carriers?

2-for-1 deal?

Edit: Wasn't there an inquiry a while ago about the possibility of putting catapults on the 'white elephants?

[cat1]

Found it:

https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/cn ... -carriers/

[RubyRoo]

Not something I would have advocated for years ago, but I genuinely believe we'd be in a better position if we sold off both the carriers.

I realise that's a decision that would get slaughtered by defence experts, the media and politicians on all sides of the house but you do need to ask 1) whether they represent value for money when they absorb crew and escorts like there's no tomorrow and 2) whether F-35B is really the right road to have gone down when it's the least capable of the 3 variants. Project Ark Royal is already looking at a potential retrofit of cats and traps for drone operation.

If the alternative to 2 carriers was say, 10 extra Type 26s armed with long range strike capability, would anyone be unhappy with that decision? I think it offers a much more credible ability for the RN and ultimately lets the Navy add more mass to its ranks.

Easy wins/Most urgent:

Royal Navy
- Expedite the contract for the Multi Role Support Ship and order the 6 planned.
- Bring Tiderace back into service.
- Order 2 more Type 26's and divert the first 2 on the production line to Norway (if Type 26 wins the contract for their next frigate).
- "Up-gun" the River class.
- Order 5 more Type 31s, forget about Type 32 entirely.
- Fix the attack submarine infrastructure so that boats aren't waiting dockside for years to get the refit they require.
- Type 45s to get ABM capability (currently planned for).

Royal Air Force
- Tranche 4 Typhoon order. 25 aircraft to replace Tranche 1 going out of service.
- 5 Wedgetails instead of 3.
- Booms fitted to Voyagers.
- If carriers are kept, continue with Tranche 2 F-35B order but cap it to the 74 total planned.
- 8 more A400M to offset the loss of Hercules and slowdown the heavy usage of the C-17 fleet, as originally envisioned.

Army
- Increase numbers back to 80k and have 2 deployable divisions.
- 200 Challenger 3s.
- Housing/Barracks infrastructure upgraded.

Nice to haves:

Royal Navy
- Project Ark Royal on both carriers to allow more interoperability of other aircraft/drone types.
- Merlin Crowsnest replacement on either V-22 or other.
- More Tomahawks.
- Expedite the Future Cruise/Anti Ship Weapon.

Royal Air Force
- Replenishment of missile stocks/Storm Shadow.
- Re-establishment of Leuchars or Leeming as a 3rd Typhoon base in order to spread our eggs out more evenly.
- Re-establishment of another transport base for the same reason.

Army
- No suggestions.

General:

- Land based missile defence system against ballistic missiles.
- Upgrade of crumbling defence infrastructure.
- Pay and conditions improved for all Forces personnel.

[Wyvern]

Interesting...just to meet the 2.5% target will require an extra £7 billion. After the reaction to the recent tax increases even more taxation won't go down well with Joe Public.

[cat1]

Valid, but this is an emergency.

Forget tax, there are other ways to cut the money.

Bottom line.

We. Do. Not. Have. The. Capability. To. Defend. Ourselves.

- Cut the garbage mega projects like HS2 which are never going to be finished in full and are a black hole for cash (100 Billion +)
- sell unused government property (estimated 1 billion +)
-A DOGE like department to cut out waste in government processes
-Net zero legal fees have been atrocious (100 billion +)
- This is a controversial one but its true, please don't get the thread locked. 8 billion + estimated on migrant housing

The money is there, its just being wasted.

[Agent K]

Valid, but this is an emergency.

Forget tax, there are other ways to cut the money.

The money is there, its just being wasted.

And another - Recover the money paid out on fraud committed during the pandemic, there's in excess of £4 Bn that the likes of Malone and the other "pals" were given.....

But please no DOGE, given the disastrous results being experienced and issues that will come home to roost. Have budget reviews and considered reductions as needed, but no swathing and unfocused activities carried out by those without experience in those areas.

[Cyberfox]

A recruitment drive needs to come first; no point having equipment if we don’t have the people to operate and maintain it.

IF the government can actually make that successful, then we need quick fixes in terms of numbers, so off the shelf purchases of jets, drones, warships and anti-air defences plus all the back up support those will need.

The only way to fund all that is cutting foreign aid significantly and reducing welfare handouts; make those all strictly means tested. And stop letting illegal immigrants stay here.

[XWP29]

Ex RAF Tornado Pilot Tim Davies has had a lot to say about it recently on his youtube channel.

I'm sure he does, in between racist and homophobic Twitter rants where he, currently, seems to be suggesting people like me (ie, of the LGBT community) should be put in an asylum. I don't think he's a particularly great source to refer to here.

Greg Bagwell, also an ex Tornado pilot, and then Deputy Commander at RAF Air Command, has spoken a lot on the same subject from a much more reasonable and, seemingly, informed perspective.

Having seen one of the formers YouTube videos I haven't watched another.

[XWP29]

Rather remarkable that after years of damaging cuts to defence and a preference for spending on other alternatives, at long last appears to be an awakening. Hooray! The issue I believe we face is that a Nuclear deterrent doesn't deter an aggressor who has them, but more importantly has a million people coming of military age every year. They have also expanded and developed conventional warfare methods and weapons.

I checked my tax contributions via the Government portal a few weeks ago, which anyone can who has a Gov account and the change in proportionate expenditure of the tax revenue over the years is interesting. The largest % spend now is for welfare, exceeding not only Defence but also the NHS.
A reset of strategy from a smaller defence force to one more prepared for scale conventional warfare and conventional warfare equipment is needed, much of and quickly (Oh and some F15-Ex's and A10's please, tongue in cheek).

Austerity and running down of defence has been and is a recipe for disaster.

[teeonefixer]

Interesting...just to meet the 2.5% target will require an extra £7 billion. After the reaction to the recent tax increases even more taxation won't go down well with Joe Public.

One problem I see is that the public are unaware of what a difficult situation the Armed Forces are in considering pay, conditions (especially housing) and recruitment, as well as equipment and infrastructure delays and problems. The MoD has always been in difficult position with contracts, having always to show best value for money, when it would often be simpler and cheaper to go for planA without procrastination. I'm sure the public would support a properly-financed structure if the plans were sensible and well-presented and if savings could be made on the waste already described by others.

[Col Nago]

There are several factors that need to be taken into account when planning our future EU NATO defence, and I'm sure the Western powers that be are very well aware of this.

The Russian economy is a time bomb now - this is a fact. It's why Putin is very keen on stopping the war ASAP. If it continues for another 12 months, the house of cards will almost certainly collapse and he'll have a very big target on his back.

If the war was to stop tomorrow, it will take Russia approx. a decade to replenish it's stocks to a pre invasion level (a level that was already a rusty creaking mess) because it cant stay on a 'war footing' for very long due to the above tightrope economy. By the end of that decade two things will have happened:

Firstly Putin will be dead, so we'll be dealing with a new Russian government that could very well be a more Western 'friendly' outfit. Also, I will bet my house that the Ukrainian SBU - who have honed their expertise to an enviable level in the past three years - will make it their number one mission to take Putin out, regardless of the cost. They might not have to though, he could very well die all by himself - or at the hands of his fed up people. Russia has lost an estimated 800,000 killed or wounded in three years and the whole 'Z' bravado at the start of the war has completely petered out. But my money is on the SBU.

Secondly the fake tanned, morbidly obese nutcase will no longer be president - and at 88 years old he'll have popped his clogs. He's no Jimmy Carter when it comes to health. What remains of his loony tunes right wing crazies remains to be seen, but I suspect we'll be sweeping up the remains of a period of history that many will be eager to forget. God knows how much damage he'll manage to do in the next four years!

But none of the above is an excuse to take our time in re-arming and developing our armed forces. We need to act now.

[Uncle Sam]

One thing that hasn't been very well planned for by the MoD - after opting for 2 QE-class carriers, they needed to provide sufficient finance to be able to operate them adequately. By that I mean provide sufficient aircraft to be able to operate at least one of the carriers at any one time to maximum capacity. Then you need the escort vessels to be able to carry out an operation without support from any other nation. That should mean RAS vessels too.

What we've ended up with is a half-baked scenario where we have the two carriers, insufficient RAF/RN aircraft to be able to deploy at maximum capacity, inadequate RN RAS vessels and an escort fleet that is severely under resourced.

I dread to think of a scenario where the RN would have to sail to the Falklands tomorrow - a-la 1982, where Argentine forces were making a move on the island, where we would have to provide all the vessels and aircraft ourselves without support from an allie. I would love to see an MoD wargame of this scenario played out and see the results - not!!

[Snoop 95]

It's easy to say that, on a national basis, our carriers are 'white elephants', but it could be that we entered into discussion with our other NATO partners about their construction. In doing so we would provide a platform for our and other nations' aircraft in time of conflict and that these capital ships would be protected by vessels from our allies' navies. I think we should bear in mind the larger picture, not just for our own defence but as wholehearted members of NATO.

[cat1]

Germany has a new leader and one who doesn't seem overly impressed by the US at the moment.

Already discussions online about Ramstein being 'repurposed' whatever that means

[RubyRoo]

2.5% by 2027 confirmed.

3% by next parliament.

Money to be diverted from the foreign aid budget into defence.

This is a great outcome. What is urgently needed now is the Strategic Defence Review to be delayed so that it can take into account the extra money and a new 3-year Equipment Plan drawn up.

Wastage across defence must be urgently addressed. We don't need all this extra money to be wasted on overdue and overbudget contracts with BAE.

Stick to the easy-wins I've noted in my post above. The increase in budget will allow for that.

[XWP29]

2.5% by 2027 confirmed.

3% by next parliament.

Money to be diverted from the foreign aid budget into defence.

This is a great outcome. What is urgently needed now is the Strategic Defence Review to be delayed so that it can take into account the extra money and a new 3-year Equipment Plan drawn up.

Wastage across defence must be urgently addressed. We don't need all this extra money to be wasted on overdue and overbudget contracts with BAE.

Stick to the easy-wins I've noted in my post above. The increase in budget will allow for that.

While the Two carriers make little sense as a standalone they’ve been deployed in NATO task groups it’ll need some deep thought before the MOD decide what to do.
Unfortunately defence and equipment is expensive particularly where they cut new ground.
BAE made an interesting announcement recently.
But at last a small step in the right direction.

[Finty]

2.5% by 2027 confirmed.

3% by next parliament.

Money to be diverted from the foreign aid budget into defence.

This is a great outcome. What is urgently needed now is the Strategic Defence Review to be delayed so that it can take into account the extra money and a new 3-year Equipment Plan drawn up.

Wastage across defence must be urgently addressed. We don't need all this extra money to be wasted on overdue and overbudget contracts with BAE.

Stick to the easy-wins I've noted in my post above. The increase in budget will allow for that.

Blimey, good news!