Drone near misses in Mach Loop (BBC report)

[Finty]

I don't quite buy that the argument that people flying drones in the mach loop are unaware of the mach loop's existence. The loop is known about overseas, some videos filmed there have gained millions of views and when they turn up to find a hillside with dozens of people toting cameras then there's no excuse.

It’s not marked on most mainstream maps used for drone operations, so how is the general public to know

From youtube and gutter press news articles, I doubt all those millions of views are accumulated solely by plane cranks like us. Look at how many people visit Cad West during the summer

And again, I'm aware of an incident on cad west (another FC user was present, not me) when despite the presence of loads of photographers, someone turned up and started flying a drone. When questioned, the f*cking idiot was aware of the loop being used by low flying aircraft, and definitely had no doubts after being given a swift talking to regarding the stupidity of their actions.

[JLewis_Aviation]

We are acting like Cads are the only place people would fly drones in the loop, theres other sections of the loop that are scenic and that people would fly a drone in not seeing any photographers and even so unless you speak to the toggers I don’t think seeing a group of people on a hillside with cameras would = planes to most people in the public.

[Finty]

We are acting like Cads are the only place people would fly drones in the loop, theres other sections of the loop that are scenic and that people would fly a drone in not seeing any photographers and even so unless you speak to the toggers I don’t think seeing a group of people on a hillside with cameras would = planes to most people in the public.

People are inquisitive when seeing a large group of people with cameras so I don't quite agree but the point about Bwlch is noted as it's not quite as famous as Cad. I am also aware of drone users being active there on one occasion.

Ultimately the MOD need to publicise this more, the news article is a step in the right direction but it's reactive rather than proactive. A great many of joe public are ignorant and need informing to avoid fatal consequences for ours and the USAF's airman and women.

[The wrong stuff]

On at least four occasions I and other photographers on cad west and bwlch have had to warn s••••••• f@?£?ers that they ate knowingly trying to film planes with drones
All of them have quickly seen the light when asked whether they would do it at an airport or whether they'd do it it if one of their family were flying through….sometimes there are no words

[TMCPC]

I don't quite buy that the argument that people flying drones in the mach loop are unaware of the mach loop's existence. The loop is known about overseas, some videos filmed there have gained millions of views and when they turn up to find a hillside with dozens of people toting cameras then there's no excuse.

You’re looking at it from an aviation enthusiast or aviation employee side of things. The non enthusiast or aviation non connected person isn’t, how is that so hard to believe?

It’s not marked on most mainstream maps used for drone operations, so how is the general public to know

That last paragraph I think is the important piece, how would the general public know?

[DUI]

Its not just drones, years ago I was sat on Bluebell (a loop camera site just before the steep hill on the A470 west of Dinas Maddwy) and in the woods on the opposite side of the valley was a cycling event run by a popular brand of caffeinated drinks. The local hotel had some army medics helping out on the event giving extra first aid.
At one point a camera carrying helicopter hovered in the middle of the valley and gave a Typhoon an unpleasant surprise and it was forced to avoid the helicopter by going vertical and leaving the valley by going straight up. Several others saw this and it became a subject of conversation in the pub that evening.

[Agent K]

"I'm sorry to inform you that your partner and Typhoon pilot was killed today after a mid-air with a drone in a low level flying area. However the drone operator didn't realise it was a low level flying area so that will reduce the feeling off loss"

The responsibility is with YOU, the drone operator, as with any pilot, remote or physical, to ensure your flying is safe and takes into consideration. You only need to google low level flying areas Wales, or Low flying near Machynlleth, and there is a plethora of maps and information detailing the Mach loop and routes and aircraft types etc etc. The information is readily available and easily accessible and out there.

If you're unsure, you don't do it, if you do want to fly then do your research.

However, I'd fully imagine that any and most of any drones being flown are for the purpose of getting photos of the aircraft anyway.

[Andyph]

Its not just drones, years ago I was sat on Bluebell (a loop camera site just before the steep hill on the A470 west of Dinas Maddwy) and in the woods on the opposite side of the valley was a cycling event run by a popular brand of caffeinated drinks. The local hotel had some army medics helping out on the event giving extra first aid.
At one point a camera carrying helicopter hovered in the middle of the valley and gave a Typhoon an unpleasant surprise and it was forced to avoid the helicopter by going vertical and leaving the valley by going straight up. Several others saw this and it became a subject of conversation in the pub that evening.

The helicopter is in its rights to be there - its is not a military only area - lots of aircraft legally operate at low level.
Apart from being a flowed valley (for other military traffic) there is nothing special airspace wise about the loop - In theory military aircraft can low fly pretty much over the whole the UK (with exceptions) and can expect to come up against low (down to 500ft) civvie traffic

[Andyph]

"I'm sorry to inform you that your partner and Typhoon pilot was killed today after a mid-air with a drone in a low level flying area. However the drone operator didn't realise it was a low level flying area so that will reduce the feeling off loss"

The responsibility is with YOU, the drone operator, as with any pilot, remote or physical, to ensure your flying is safe and takes into consideration. You only need to google low level flying areas Wales, or Low flying near Machynlleth, and there is a plethora of maps and information detailing the Mach loop and routes and aircraft types etc etc. The information is readily available and easily accessible and out there.

Almost the whole county (as in a few post above) is covered by the low fly system. You need to stop them flying over pretty much the whole country... (not that that is a bad idea)
But there is nothing special about the loop airspace wise...

[Vulcanone]

If your flying in the LFA in a civilian aircraft.... Remember to seek permission/notify folks first !! Otherwise.....

29/08/91 Jaguar T.2 vs Cessna 152 G-BHMI The Jaguar collided with the Cessna over Carno, Powys at between 300 and 400 ft. The Jaguar crew ejected, but the pilot was killed. The Cessna pilot was also killed. It had taken off from Halfpenny Green on an aerial photography flight but was operating in a military low flying area without authorisation

I can't currently find the details of the Tornado vs Jet Ranger in the Lake District in 1993? The Tornado made an emergency landing at Warton

21/01/99 Tornado ZA330 vs Cessna 152 G-BPZX The Tornado collided with the Cessna from behind at 500 ft near Everton, Nottinghamshire. The Cessna had two occupants on board and was photographing properties in the area. The Tornado was outbound from Cottesmore with an Italian pilot and an RAF instructor on board. All four occupants were killed when the aircraft collided although one seat was ejected from the Tornado but this was as a result of the collision and was not initiated by the crew. I seem to recall the Cessna wasn't supposed to be there either.

[roughcutter]

Currently on ADSB I notice there's quite a bit of drone activity in and around Llanbedr, four uav's c/s Opera. New one on me

[JLewis_Aviation]

If your flying in the LFA in a civilian aircraft.... Remember to seek permission/notify folks first !! Otherwise.....

29/08/91 Jaguar T.2 vs Cessna 152 G-BHMI The Jaguar collided with the Cessna over Carno, Powys at between 300 and 400 ft. The Jaguar crew ejected, but the pilot was killed. The Cessna pilot was also killed. It had taken off from Halfpenny Green on an aerial photography flight but was operating in a military low flying area without authorisation

I can't currently find the details of the Tornado vs Jet Ranger in the Lake District in 1993? The Tornado made an emergency landing at Warton

21/01/99 Tornado ZA330 vs Cessna 152 G-BPZX The Tornado collided with the Cessna from behind at 500 ft near Everton, Nottinghamshire. The Cessna had two occupants on board and was photographing properties in the area. The Tornado was outbound from Cottesmore with an Italian pilot and an RAF instructor on board. All four occupants were killed when the aircraft collided although one seat was ejected from the Tornado but this was as a result of the collision and was not initiated by the crew. I seem to recall the Cessna wasn't supposed to be there either.

If everywhere below 2000ft in the UK is an LFA I’m not sure where else a lot of the traffic is allowed to be given most G/A flying is between 2-4K feet. You regularly hear aircraft, especially helicopters, calling on UK low level stating intentions but often they call out a field number when stating their plans but only other raf crew would know these field numbers which seems a bit stupid imo but that’s a whole different problem.

[quid21]

"I'm sorry to inform you that your partner and Typhoon pilot was killed today after a mid-air with a drone in a low level flying area. However the drone operator didn't realise it was a low level flying area so that will reduce the feeling off loss"

The responsibility is with YOU, the drone operator, as with any pilot, remote or physical, to ensure your flying is safe and takes into consideration. You only need to google low level flying areas Wales, or Low flying near Machynlleth, and there is a plethora of maps and information detailing the Mach loop and routes and aircraft types etc etc. The information is readily available and easily accessible and out there.

If you're unsure, you don't do it, if you do want to fly then do your research.

However, I'd fully imagine that any and most of any drones being flown are for the purpose of getting photos of the aircraft anyway.

For anyone that stumbles upon this post who does fly a drone - make sure you registered yourself as a drone operator on the CAA website, and took their test. Also make sure your drone has your CAA operator ID written on it.

If you don't know what the rules are: https://register-drones.caa.co.uk/drone ... ou-can-fly


I used to be a registered drone operator flying in accordance with the CAA rules observing the no-fly maps etc. I gave up because it simply wasn't for me, not enough safe places to fly - even in safe to fly areas, the general public see you as someone up to no good due to the bad press drones got when some idiots flew them over Gatwick (from memory). There are responsible drone operators out there, but I'd say for every 1 there's 10 unregistered, untested operators who frequently break the rules - sadly as with most new technologies, the government is far too slow to act with regulation coming in so late in the day.

[Finty]

"I'm sorry to inform you that your partner and Typhoon pilot was killed today after a mid-air with a drone in a low level flying area. However the drone operator didn't realise it was a low level flying area so that will reduce the feeling off loss"

The responsibility is with YOU, the drone operator, as with any pilot, remote or physical, to ensure your flying is safe and takes into consideration. You only need to google low level flying areas Wales, or Low flying near Machynlleth, and there is a plethora of maps and information detailing the Mach loop and routes and aircraft types etc etc. The information is readily available and easily accessible and out there.

If you're unsure, you don't do it, if you do want to fly then do your research.

However, I'd fully imagine that any and most of any drones being flown are for the purpose of getting photos of the aircraft anyway.

Well said. Exactly this.

[Gary]

Most of you are looking at it from being inside the military aviation bubble. So if you have no interest in military aviation or an overseas visitor. You've got your Flyer ID, Operator ID or even your A2 CofC. Which given you more freedom. You're in picturesque Wales you load up the drone app or assist app and there is no warning. You would then, having no knowledge of the arena go oh no I must not trust the app. Ok

My location on the actual DJI Fly app


The Loop


There are operators that are numpties I understand that.

The CAA are in consultation to bring in RID ( Remote ID) which should make it easier to track the numpties

The whole issue could be avoided by putting a caution or restrictions on the loop like Holbeach range in the first picture

[Andyph]

"I'm sorry to inform you that your partner and Typhoon pilot was killed today after a mid-air with a drone in a low level flying area. However the drone operator didn't realise it was a low level flying area so that will reduce the feeling off loss"

The responsibility is with YOU, the drone operator, as with any pilot, remote or physical, to ensure your flying is safe and takes into consideration. You only need to google low level flying areas Wales, or Low flying near Machynlleth, and there is a plethora of maps and information detailing the Mach loop and routes and aircraft types etc etc. The information is readily available and easily accessible and out there.

If you're unsure, you don't do it, if you do want to fly then do your research.

However, I'd fully imagine that any and most of any drones being flown are for the purpose of getting photos of the aircraft anyway.

Well said. Exactly this.

But you can hit a low level military aircraft over almost all of the country .... there is nothing special about the loop apart from the chance goes up a bit.

are drones Ok over say the Yorkshire Dales - what about the Lake District? Are you suggesting just the flowed valleys are banned?

[mhm]

The Government published this,https://www.gov.uk/guidance/military-low-flying

[cat1]

Wouldn't that risk increase hugely with jets?

The SW sees quite a bit of low level heli activities on set routes, yet we never seem to have any problems, maybe due to average speed?

[JLewis_Aviation]

Also due to at a pilot, co pilot most likely 2+ crewman in the back looking for traffic in built up areas and combine that wigh the average speed as you’ve said much less likely to run into anything although the risk is always there.