The Ukraine Situation

[Col Nago]

HIMARS systems are doing devastating work, but my god the Excalibur GPS artillery round is astonishing and terrifying at the same time.

[Bobcode]

History will show that without considerable outside help, second front ww2 to divert some of the axis strength, masses of arms and materiel from the US etc. Russia is an impotent sabre rattling state.

[Pune]

This gives a good idea of how Russia's war is going:

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/a ... pment.html

Russian tank turrets are doing more air sorties than the Russian air force.

Wow, that's an eyeopener

[Alfie]

The thing that is prolonging the war in Ukraine is all the aid and weapons being pumped into there from the west. The west should have not interfered in the first place going right back to the uprising in 2014 when a western backed coup deposed the duly elected pro-Russian government. I thought by now the western powers would have learnt not to meddle with countries that are no concern to them.

[Pune]

The thing that is prolonging the war in Ukraine is all the aid and weapons being pumped into there from the west. The west should have not interfered in the first place going right back to the uprising in 2014 when a western backed coup deposed the duly elected pro-Russian government. I thought by now the western powers would have learnt not to meddle with countries that are no concern to them.

Well that's history, the issue is now, let Pukin over run any country he likes, to feed his ego, is that your solution?
I think 1939 was a lesson well learned.

[Col Nago]

How were they able to do a Full Inventory of all the damaged/lost hardware?

They explain how it’s done in the text prior to the list. The Oryx organisation aren’t a bunch of amateurs having a guess and making stuff up. They’re highly regarded analysts used by NATO and the media alike.

[Craig]

It is a bit late at night to think of a thoughtful reply but I have to say I don't agree with anything in the above post.

I think you are saying let the bully win because we can't afford the price?

I believe Ukrainian people will fight to the last man to save a scrap of Ukraine territory. If we don't help where will it end? Latvia or Estonia or perhaps Finland is there for the taking .

Oh yes what about the mass graves! Shall we just forget about them or Malaysian Flight 17 from Amsterdam?

Hi Mike, I'm not saying let the bully win because we can't afford the price.

Although arguably we can't afford the financial cost. The mini budget yesterday must have illustrated how ruined the UK economy is. In short following 2 years of printing untold quantities of money increasing supply which was the catalyst for inflation (still hidden largely - and not the Ukraine situation), the only answer they have is huge spending pledges* and tax cuts, which will lead to more borrowing or money printing and we are back on the merry go round of kicking the can down the road to much more financial pain.

*One such expense is the government picking up the tab for anything the energy companies wish to charge above the price cap for consumers. This lining of the pockets of corporations is not free and will cost the ordinary men and women of the UK many times over in the years to come, but it is a direct result of government policy in causing the Ukraine conflict and sanctioning Russian oil!

The only thing the central bank can do in response to the mini budget is raise rates, which will have the opposite effect of increasing growth as it will make UK assets less attractive. Don't worry though, all economies of the world are lepers in the leper colony and are being deliberately sabotaged to transfer asset wealth to the worlds richest people, destroy FIAT currency and usher in a new digital control currency.

I can sympathise with your view that ordinary Ukrainians are fighting to protect their homeland, and the fact many of them believe they are doing so. What is harder to accept is that they are in a situation they should never have been put in, the situation in Ukraine was created and fomented by the West going back a long time. They, like the western public, have also been under psychological attack by theirs and other governments and NGO's through the owned media and other means. This war is clearly not for their benefit.

I shouldn't need to word statements like this, but to be clear, there will be propaganda from the Russian side which will twist things and I am not supporting Putin. I would suggest he is part of the above agenda, we are just going through a phase where different parts of the power structure are fighting over control and power in the new multi polar world order with the demise of US hegemony, although ultimately still controlled by the same forces.

But so many peoples assertion that Putin is a crazed madman who is trying to take over Europe doesn't stack up to his own words, which I appreciate can't be taken as gospel. But the fact that his words are censored in the UK and we are not hearing the Russian point of view to at least consider what they are saying is an indication you live in a dictatorship that has shut down free speech and wants to bang the war drums whilst writing history from one side only. I would recommend looking into what the Russian position is claimed to be from the Russian side, and not just the UK side. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle. I go back to the Russians actions though, and they have shown no intention of taking the whole of Ukraine, far less the rest of Europe**. They will gain a land bridge to the Crimea when the Donbass regions vote to join Russia though, and that has to be the point we hold our hands up and call of the innocent Ukrainians who we are encouraging to go and die under Russian artillery because the stakes will be that much higher. Then let Ukraine rebuild neutrally, without Russian control and without Western involvement. Although the rebuilding contracts have already been awarded to various Western nations and contractors you will be pleased to hear.

**The rest of Europe is destroying itself quite nicely with Covid policies, Russian sanctions and green energy plans.

The price then effectively will be Ukrainian territory shrinking by 20-25% maybe, but do not forget that the regions they will lose are regions that they themselves have been attacking and murdering citizens in for 8 years. I seriously doubt Russia will carry on further than this if NATO stop attacking them via Ukraine.

I'm not suggesting you hold this contradiction but we also appear to have 2 opposing narratives here, the first is that if we don't stop Russia here they will steamroll across the rest of Europe. The second is that they have not taken Ukraine because they are incompetent and simply unable to do so. Which one is it?

Regarding your last points, again you are accepting what you hear in the western media as fact. The media are not independent, they are not interested in truth and their only goal is to provoke a reaction from us demanding government action which is the action the government wanted to take anyway when they created the problem. I have seen videos of citizen journalists debunking the mass graves, I'm sure others could find similar homemade videos showing the opposite, neither of us know the truth so why would you call for a proxy war with a nation we buy gas from and destroy Ukraine in the process?

MH17? Well worth reading up on, but essential Cui Bono? Who Benefits? Well the same people that wanted us to hate Russia and to drag them into conflict with NATO perhaps.

This gives a good idea of how Russia's war is going:

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/a ... pment.html

Russian tank turrets are doing more air sorties than the Russian air force.

How were they able to do a Full Inventory of all the damaged/lost hardware?

It is a good question. You need to look at the guys doing the reporting and see who they work for, which is Bellingcat. Then look them up (!) and see who funds them, amongst others if you randomly choose the National Endowment for Democracy check out their people. A few seconds reading will show you that their CEO, also linked with the Atlantic Council, Damon Wilson's bio reads; " ...to secure freedom through NATO enlargement; to deter and counter Russian aggression..."

So here we have a vested interest only a couple of clicks away from the highly trusted make up what you like source material. So can you trust what you are being told, when the people that benefit from you believing it are funding the 'investigators'?

[Col Nago]

Hi Craig. Here’s your Russian airpower. Another day, another MANPADS up the back end.

https://twitter.com/uaweapons/status/15 ... Slz9cTkphA

[Col Nago]

These lads are waiting for your vodka soaked pals…

https://twitter.com/yurapalyanytsia/sta ... NMEINUD60g

[slogen51]

All this pro Russia stuff is harshing my mellow

[paddyboy]

Looks like there are some fans of Comrade Corbyn on FC

[TealRain]

Hi Craig. Here’s your Russian airpower. Another day, another MANPADS up the back end.

https://twitter.com/uaweapons/status/15 ... Slz9cTkphA

[C24]

From historical times haven’t the Russians wanted to rule to area to gain access to the Black Sea and the agricultural land to the north?
This latest move is just to regain dominance lost in recent years. They are also annoyed that the people of the Baltic states prefer a Western lifestyle to oppression.
Putin is threatening to use nuclear weapons of various degrees of intensity. Perhaps we should suggest a retaliatory strike of low yield nuclear against the gas a and oil fields under his control?

Have you realised that war is seldom fought by those who start them?

How many Russian nationals, resident in Russia, have a similar hobby to most who post on here?




Another thought, re lending military kit to people who would benefit from having it. There are military vehicles sitting around here not being usefully employed so we obviously don’t need them.
All very simplistic but to misquote FDR, “if my neighbour’s house is on fire, why shouldn’t I lend him my hosepipe?”

Some Russians are not nice people.

[effects]

"The price then effectively will be Ukrainian territory shrinking by 20-25% maybe, but do not forget that the regions they will lose are regions that they themselves have been attacking and murdering citizens in for 8 years. I seriously doubt Russia will carry on further than this if NATO stop attacking them via Ukraine."
The territory that the Russians stole in 2014, the world should have stood up to them at that point, it would have been done and dusted by now. Remember what they did to all those Warsaw pact countries.

[Alfie]

Isn't strange in 1939 we waged war against a far-right Nazi power and with the help of our Russian allies we overcame them in 1945. How the tables have turned we are now supporting a far-right governed country with learnings towards Nazism fighting against our old allies who helped us stamp out Nazism in 1945.

[steamy]

So here we have a vested interest only a couple of clicks away from the highly trusted make up what you like source material. So can you trust what you are being told, when the people that benefit from you believing it are funding the 'investigators'?

Or you could just take what the Russian's have said at face value over it, then ask them why they changed their story so many times (which a lot of people who do the "don't trust western media" act, don't actually do, yet claim to)...

They were originally claiming a SU25 shot it down (ground attack aircraft by the way)
Then when the evidence of shrapnel from an AA Missile was evident, they switched to "oh it must have been Ukraine's BUK system (no one had said it was a BUK system at that point)"
Then when Aleksandr Khodakovsky messed up by claiming then disclaiming separatists had access to a Russian BUK it was " a misquote"
When the investigators proved it was a BUK, they said "they agree but it was definitely not the type they used, theirs blows up differently, it must be Ukranian"
When the Bellingcat investigation came out, they went to great lengths to try and show the videos and pictures were doctored (they weren't by the way)

Plenty of black tongues everywhere

[steamy]

@Craig - What a Fantastic ley balanced post, sums the situation up far better than I could have said.

it doesn't really though.

It's definitely sits in the "I don't trust western media, but by saying that, that inherently means I trust Russian media and opensource mostly unverified media, but that takes me off the fence, so I'm gonna say I don't agree with Putin" brigade

[iainpeden]

No prizes for guessing who Putin will blame for this one.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63032790

[iainpeden]

Isn't strange in 1939 we waged war against a far-right Nazi power and with the help of our Russian allies we overcame them in 1945. How the tables have turned we are now supporting a far-right governed country with learnings towards Nazism fighting against our old allies who helped us stamp out Nazism in 1945.

Totally take the point. Only thing is that the right/left description isn't a straight line, it's a circle and you can't get a cigarette paper between a far-right Nazi totalitarian dictatorship and a far left Stalinist totalitarian dictatorship.

[Col Nago]

Isn't strange in 1939 we waged war against a far-right Nazi power and with the help of our Russian allies we overcame them in 1945. How the tables have turned we are now supporting a far-right governed country with learnings towards Nazism fighting against our old allies who helped us stamp out Nazism in 1945.

Russia was never on anyones side but their own during WWII and then look what happened post war.

As for a far-right Ukraine. You really need to read up on what you’re posting.