The Ukraine Situation

[Pune]

We can all do a little to help here..
https://www.gofundme.com/f/helpukraine? ... 3afd9b15c1

[Northsky]

Where are the Wokes ?

[pg1610]

Where are the Wokes ?

The what ??

[Northsky]

Well usually the woke bunch try to cancel anything they do not like .

[pg1610]

Whilst the UK has banned Russian airlines and aircraft as part of the sanctions package, and some European countries are now following suit(mainly those in the east) it would seem the EU in the main and USA have not yet added this to their sanctions package
therefore we in the UK have again put ourselves at a disadvantage (maybe only temporarily) but the rest of the European major airports are continuing to gain revenue whilst our airports(well London Heathrow) that are struggling anyway are loosing out
I thought the idea was to show a united front on these sanction packages ?

[paddyboy]

Well, Northsky, those ‘woke’ w@nkstains won’t turn up ‘cos they don’t have a pair

pg: it has been a long time since there has been a United front

[Craig]

To be fair the EU have their eyes on the Ukraine also ( and weirdly a lot of people in this country would complain if tens of thousands came here to work under the EU umbrella )

But of course it should be up to the Ukraine population to decide - is the Ukraine a proper democracy?

Of course in a democracy things are not always clear - take Brexit for example and it is reported that many in the Ukraine sympathize with Russia and have family in Russia and vice versa.

However countries can't just be allowed to bully neighbours and invasion is unheard-of post WW2 - Argentina tried it.

As I understand it Ukraine was a democracy.

In 2010 Viktor Yanukovych was elected as the President in an internationally observed fair election. During 2013 he aligned Ukraine closer with Russia, and moved away from further integration with the EU, or at least signalled he would look to do so.

In 2014 he was ousted from office by a western backed armed coup, and Petro Poroshenko got in. He did the opposite, bringing the country closer to the EU and NATO, whilst going to war with the more historically Russia aligned regions to the East.

His 3 word slogan that his re run for presidency was based on was 'Army, Language and Faith'. These really outline how the nationalist Ukrainian ruling party have been pressurising the Donetsk and Luhansk regions in particular, and would the Crimea too but they voted 97% to become independent form Ukraine in 2014. There are at least 4 million of their own citizens in the Donbass who the authorities have been attacking militarily, is anyone surprised why they may declare independence. They meet all of the UN charter to do so it seems.

I think we need to look at the history of Ukraine to understand the current situation a little better for a start.

From a religion point of view it was vastly Russian Orthodox church across most of the country predominantly the South and East. It was only Catholic in the West, this aligns with the west being part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire I think and the rest of the Ukraine being Russian during the 19th century.

From a language point of view along the same lines the Russian language dominates absolutely. However the good guys in power in the Ukraine have pushed Ukrainian language so hard everyone must speak it to be able to interact publicly. They haven't banned Russian, but they have made life very difficult for Russian only speakers.

This belief that Ukraine good/Russia bad is way too simplistic and it is worth trying to look at things objectively and ask how you would react in the Russians shoes? This is the issue with using a defensive pact like NATO aggressively and encircling your 'enemy'. It is also the issue with using sanctions rather than keeping them as a threat, and (the US pressuring Germany into) cancelling the Nordstream 2 gas pipe line (so they can sell Europe fracked LNG at much higher prices?), is that you give your enemy all of the negatives and thus make their choice for them?

People need to look into the Azov battalion and other far right elements within Ukraine's military, these guys are neo nazis. (Also look up whose special forces have been embedded in the Ukrainian military and training them)

Putin's point has always been that the actor (all politicians are though!) Zelensky does not have full control over the military. There is tension in the Donbass with both sides attacking each other. He is not just saying that he does not want Ukraine in NATO but that the West really don't either due to the situation that could occur. As I've explained above the people of the Donbass view Russia as the motherland and the Russians (a proud nation who lost over 25 million people in WW2*) would not hesitate to defend them if the far right elements within the Ukrainian military really attacked them. We would then be brought into war with Russia via article 5 so quickly and whilst NATO would win that war Russia has how many thousand nuclear warheads...?

*One reason why Boris' speeches threatening Russian mothers with losing sons in Ukraine and blood/devastation etc are so unprofessional and embarrassing for us.

The following is not a criticism of you Mike, far from it, I'd say you are speaking sense on this thread.

A lot of us really need to calm down, stop taking what we see in the mainstream media as gospel and realise it is ok not to know what is going on and as such not to demand a reaction from our politicians. So much of what happens to us in this world today is manipulated, if a problem is created that garners a certain reaction from the public then they can offer the solution they wanted to bring in all along. So please don't demand we go to war with Russia as you have no clue what you are asking for, or even why beyond repeating media soundbites half of the time.

[slogen51]

Yes I think you make a lot of valid points.

But once Putin invaded and allowed the military to missile strike blocks of residential flats in Kyiv then Russia has lost all credibility.

That is just pure evil in my eyes.

Why can't ordinary folk be allowed to get on with their lives?

[XWP29]

To be fair the EU have their eyes on the Ukraine also ( and weirdly a lot of people in this country would complain if tens of thousands came here to work under the EU umbrella )

But of course it should be up to the Ukraine population to decide - is the Ukraine a proper democracy?

Of course in a democracy things are not always clear - take Brexit for example and it is reported that many in the Ukraine sympathize with Russia and have family in Russia and vice versa.

However countries can't just be allowed to bully neighbours and invasion is unheard-of post WW2 - Argentina tried it.

As I understand it Ukraine was a democracy.

In 2010 Viktor Yanukovych was elected as the President in an internationally observed fair election. During 2013 he aligned Ukraine closer with Russia, and moved away from further integration with the EU, or at least signalled he would look to do so.

In 2014 he was ousted from office by a western backed armed coup, and Petro Poroshenko got in. He did the opposite, bringing the country closer to the EU and NATO, whilst going to war with the more historically Russia aligned regions to the East.

His 3 word slogan that his re run for presidency was based on was 'Army, Language and Faith'. These really outline how the nationalist Ukrainian ruling party have been pressurising the Donetsk and Luhansk regions in particular, and would the Crimea too but they voted 97% to become independent form Ukraine in 2014. There are at least 4 million of their own citizens in the Donbass who the authorities have been attacking militarily, is anyone surprised why they may declare independence. They meet all of the UN charter to do so it seems.

I think we need to look at the history of Ukraine to understand the current situation a little better for a start.

From a religion point of view it was vastly Russian Orthodox church across most of the country predominantly the South and East. It was only Catholic in the West, this aligns with the west being part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire I think and the rest of the Ukraine being Russian during the 19th century.

From a language point of view along the same lines the Russian language dominates absolutely. However the good guys in power in the Ukraine have pushed Ukrainian language so hard everyone must speak it to be able to interact publicly. They haven't banned Russian, but they have made life very difficult for Russian only speakers.

This belief that Ukraine good/Russia bad is way too simplistic and it is worth trying to look at things objectively and ask how you would react in the Russians shoes? This is the issue with using a defensive pact like NATO aggressively and encircling your 'enemy'. It is also the issue with using sanctions rather than keeping them as a threat, and (the US pressuring Germany into) cancelling the Nordstream 2 gas pipe line (so they can sell Europe fracked LNG at much higher prices?), is that you give your enemy all of the negatives and thus make their choice for them?

People need to look into the Azov battalion and other far right elements within Ukraine's military, these guys are neo nazis. (Also look up whose special forces have been embedded in the Ukrainian military and training them)

Putin's point has always been that the actor (all politicians are though!) Zelensky does not have full control over the military. There is tension in the Donbass with both sides attacking each other. He is not just saying that he does not want Ukraine in NATO but that the West really don't either due to the situation that could occur. As I've explained above the people of the Donbass view Russia as the motherland and the Russians (a proud nation who lost over 25 million people in WW2*) would not hesitate to defend them if the far right elements within the Ukrainian military really attacked them. We would then be brought into war with Russia via article 5 so quickly and whilst NATO would win that war Russia has how many thousand nuclear warheads...?

*One reason why Boris' speeches threatening Russian mothers with losing sons in Ukraine and blood/devastation etc are so unprofessional and embarrassing for us.

The following is not a criticism of you Mike, far from it, I'd say you are speaking sense on this thread.

A lot of us really need to calm down, stop taking what we see in the mainstream media as gospel and realise it is ok not to know what is going on and as such not to demand a reaction from our politicians. So much of what happens to us in this world today is manipulated, if a problem is created that garners a certain reaction from the public then they can offer the solution they wanted to bring in all along. So please don't demand we go to war with Russia as you have no clue what you are asking for, or even why beyond repeating media soundbites half of the time.

If the Kremlin or anyone else have evidence of these alleged crimes on either side they have the right to the international courts.
The Soviet have the blood of 11 million Kulak’s on those hands.
What’s happening now is despicable and completely out of all proportion. Unless it’s all made up TV for the masses.
Of course it isn’t!

[slogen51]

Yes I think you make a lot of valid points.

But once Putin invaded and allowed the military to missile strike blocks of residential flats in Kyiv then Russia has lost all credibility.

That is just pure evil in my eyes.

Why can't ordinary folk be allowed to get on with their lives?

BBC showed a recording of the block of flats being hit by a missile - according to the BBC the block was evacuated the night before so was thankfully empty.

Which makes one think

[pg1610]

Yes I think you make a lot of valid points.

But once Putin invaded and allowed the military to missile strike blocks of residential flats in Kyiv then Russia has lost all credibility.

That is just pure evil in my eyes.

Why can't ordinary folk be allowed to get on with their lives?

BBC showed a recording of the block of flats being hit by a missile - according to the BBC the block was evacuated the night before so was thankfully empty.

Which makes one think

Yet TV coverage has residents being interviewed and people being brought out by fire fighters (allegedly)

[slogen51]

Indeed

I can't understand why they would target a block of flats - that must be a War Crime that Putin will have on his conscience for ever.

( I would be suspicious if the clip was released by Iraq , Syria , North Korea etc )

[XWP29]

The tank incident squashing the car?

[raptor9]

It is thought [unsubstantiated] that the tank incident was a Ukrainian tank that had a problem and control was lost.

[Craig]

Yes I think you make a lot of valid points.

But once Putin invaded and allowed the military to missile strike blocks of residential flats in Kyiv then Russia has lost all credibility.

That is just pure evil in my eyes.

Why can't ordinary folk be allowed to get on with their lives?

I don't know the answers to these questions, but my point is none of us do, so forming opinions without actual knowledge of what is happening and why is not always for the best.

Like you've already alluded to, it makes no sense for Putin/Russian forces to deliberately target civilians.

How do we know that was not a Ukrainian missile (after evacuating in advance to prevent casualties), designed to draw the west into the conflict in sympathy?

How do we know that it was not, fired by Russians, but an accident? If that happened to be the case how is that any different to the estimated 1000s of dead civilians accidentally caused by US led strikes in Afghanistan?

But I totally agree with you ordinary folk should be allowed to get on with their lives and anyone in Ukraine killed, injured and being manipulated into harms way, or even to cause it I feel sorry for.

I also agree with you about Cobra Warrior!

[Craig]

If the Kremlin or anyone else have evidence of these alleged crimes on either side they have the right to the international courts.
The Soviet have the blood of 11 million Kulak’s on those hands.
What’s happening now is despicable and completely out of all proportion. Unless it’s all made up TV for the masses.
Of course it isn’t!

If the west had evidence of various countries/dictators crimes over the years why didn't we use the international courts and instead just launch invasions?

I'm not saying there is not an invasion happening, but the media are fully capable of making up TV for the masses!

There have been numerous examples over the years where crisis actors are used to paint a picture that will keep us in a state of fear. Some have already emerged of a bandaged up 'Ukrainian resident' who looks spookily like a lady who survived a gas explosion a few years ago.

What are you seeing on the TV that is substantiated evidence?

I don't watch it because it is applied behavioural psychology at work, but clips I have seen are always reporters in helmets half ducking down with explosion like sounds in the background talking about 'unconfirmed reports' of this and that. Sometimes with a random person in the background acting completely normal!

People in Ukraine, Russian/Ukrainian/Other dying is despicable I agree, but it is not black and white who are the good guys here and we in the West have a lot to answer for with it getting to this.

Like I already said, pre 2014 there was a democratically elected leader in Ukraine. We have never applied any pressure on Zelensky to stop shelling his own citizens and to ratify the Minsk accords. Is moving more and more weaponry in going to do anything other than increase the death on both sides and prolong the suffering?

[Craig]

It is thought [unsubstantiated] that the tank incident was a Ukrainian tank that had a problem and control was lost.

Exactly my point, people have emotional reactions to what they see in the news/social media without knowing the facts.

This does apply either way of course.

The footage I saw showed 2 camera angles of it, and they didn't match. The second one did not have the white lines on the road or the tram lines this side of it which was odd too.

[XWP29]

It is thought [unsubstantiated] that the tank incident was a Ukrainian tank that had a problem and control was lost.

Exactly my point, people have emotional reactions to what they see in the news/social media without knowing the facts.

This does apply either way of course.

The footage I saw showed 2 camera angles of it, and they didn't match. The second one did not have the white lines on the road or the tram lines this side of it which was odd too.

Thought you didn’t watch the news

[Craig]

It is thought [unsubstantiated] that the tank incident was a Ukrainian tank that had a problem and control was lost.

Exactly my point, people have emotional reactions to what they see in the news/social media without knowing the facts.

This does apply either way of course.

The footage I saw showed 2 camera angles of it, and they didn't match. The second one did not have the white lines on the road or the tram lines this side of it which was odd too.

Thought you didn’t watch the news

I don't.

I searched for the clip after you mentioned it.

[Dan213]

If the Kremlin or anyone else have evidence of these alleged crimes on either side they have the right to the international courts.
The Soviet have the blood of 11 million Kulak’s on those hands.
What’s happening now is despicable and completely out of all proportion. Unless it’s all made up TV for the masses.
Of course it isn’t!

If the west had evidence of various countries/dictators crimes over the years why didn't we use the international courts and instead just launch invasions?

I'm not saying there is not an invasion happening, but the media are fully capable of making up TV for the masses!

There have been numerous examples over the years where crisis actors are used to paint a picture that will keep us in a state of fear. Some have already emerged of a bandaged up 'Ukrainian resident' who looks spookily like a lady who survived a gas explosion a few years ago.

What are you seeing on the TV that is substantiated evidence?

I don't watch it because it is applied behavioural psychology at work, but clips I have seen are always reporters in helmets half ducking down with explosion like sounds in the background talking about 'unconfirmed reports' of this and that. Sometimes with a random person in the background acting completely normal!

People in Ukraine, Russian/Ukrainian/Other dying is despicable I agree, but it is not black and white who are the good guys here and we in the West have a lot to answer for with it getting to this.

Like I already said, pre 2014 there was a democratically elected leader in Ukraine. We have never applied any pressure on Zelensky to stop shelling his own citizens and to ratify the Minsk accords. Is moving more and more weaponry in going to do anything other than increase the death on both sides and prolong the suffering?

Seriously?