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Defence Review Overview

A forum for discussing all things related to MILITARY AVIATION including Military Aviation news. No off-topic discussions here please.
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Tally-ho
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Location: Nottinghamshire

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by Tally-ho » Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:30 am

A sensible Defence Review - to me.

You need to fully grasp and understand all of the content of Chapter 1 "Changing strategic context". If you cannot or refuse to grasp Chapter 1 the rest will be easy to nitpick and criticize.
Cannon fodder, bottomless pits filled with men and materiel, and prolonged endless wars are gone.

The following are examples of yesterday's wars:-
The Western Front trenches (WW1)
BAOR (Cold War days 'camping' on the Rhine)
Endless wars (e.g. boots in Helmand and Basra)

If all fails, reread the instructions - Chapter 1! :)

Crusty
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Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by Crusty » Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:45 am

Shouldnt this be Titled' Defence Cuts Overview' ?

Unknown74
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Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:13 pm

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by Unknown74 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:15 am

So do we now have 2 Army Special Ops Units, SAS and Rangers?

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Nighthawke
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Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by Nighthawke » Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:46 am

Crusty wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:45 am
Shouldnt this be Titled' Defence Cuts Overview' ?
No.

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Yammer
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Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:27 pm

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by Yammer » Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:52 am

Unknown74 wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:15 am
So do we now have 2 Army Special Ops Units, SAS and Rangers?

plus others too including

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_R ... e_Regiment

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Ghost from above
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Re: Defence Cuts Overview

Post by Ghost from above » Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:38 am

Coming soon to the UK .........Defence Estate Review 2021..
Tongue in cheek 😀
Mac

Puff the Magic Dragon the original suppressor

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TonyO
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Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by TonyO » Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:00 am

the concerned wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:21 pm
Didn't the UK recently sign up to a European medium lift helicopter to replace both merlin and nh90. Also I think the RAF will be looking to the new trainer being developed in Anglia the one with changeable wings.
The NATO New Generation Rotorcraft won't be developed for another 15-20 years and the RAF is currently just looking at the modular trainer to support their work into the Pyramid open architecture system, anything else is a long way off.
You want the Aladeen news, or the Aladeen news?

Supra
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Re: Defence Cuts Overview

Post by Supra » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:03 am

Much like my favorite waste of Time & Money, the two UK aircraft-carriers! We hastily get rid of our highly modified Harrier-Force for small-change & scrap the Carrier, then about 11 years later we get the semblance of a single operational Carrier loaded-out with all 3 of our serviceable/willfully inadequate F-35B's & no credible AEW, AAR, COD & now reduced surface vessels to make up the CSG? After that time elapsed without the capability one questions why we need such a 'prestigious target' wallowing around. :roll:
Not into ships, but dumping all the Mine-hunters & some Frigates/Destroyers ahead of a new fleet of ships later this decade leaves another gaping hole in capability....that questions the absolute need to fill it?
Reducing the UK AWACS Sentries to just 2 barely able to fly, but only lasting to 2021 year-end ahead of the new 'force' of 5 reduced to 3 Wedgetails due in operational service 2023? :whistle:
Potentially retiring forthwith Hercules, Puma & whatever right away? More potential for shortages in airlift capacity....bring-on those civilian freight-hauler contracts! :cool:
Equipping with P8 Poseidon years after we lost the Nimrod. whilst the need for Maritime Patrol was served with RAF C-130J..... they're soon gone. We managed years without a dedicated MPA, but now we've got 4 so far? Don't hold your breath for the full order. :O
Capping RAF/RN F-35B at just 48, having financed training, simulator, maintenance,etc for a minimum 146? Infrastructure costs divided by 48 & reduced order costs must've escalated the unit price of each underwhelming F-35 B (Frightening 2) to well...frightening amounts. ;)
Scrapping early typhoons now, while Tempest is just a full-size Airfix kit. Clearly there is prestige, jobs, skills preservation, in developing such a advanced 'British jet' but it's still a international co-operative that isn't likely to enter service before 2040? We'll all be using matter-tranporters before then or dead from Covid 23.5.
On the subject of Nukes, I had imagined we already had a big enough arsenal to ensure any naughty Nation could be annihilated ....seconds before we are!
PS: Remind me what platform we are using to drop Tactical Nukes like the B61 Mod 12 since the Tornado was retired?? Still, I am impressed that a Typhoon popped a Storm Shadow or 2 up an insurgents cave in some piece of worthless desert. That's 'Value-For-Money' & you can't do that with a Dreadnought submarine either!
I'm sure my cynicism is not universally shared & I welcome any input that makes this bleak outlook appear better. :'(

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Fighterfoto
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Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by Fighterfoto » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:10 am

You were doing so well until you asked the question about what the RAF were using to drop tac nukes these days.
Never trust a grown man with a nickname

scottoz8
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:15 pm

Re: Defence Cuts Overview

Post by scottoz8 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:20 am

Supra wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:03 am
Much like my favorite waste of Time & Money, the two UK aircraft-carriers! We hastily get rid of our highly modified Harrier-Force for small-change & scrap the Carrier, then about 11 years later we get the semblance of a single operational Carrier loaded-out with all 3 of our serviceable/willfully inadequate F-35B's & no credible AEW, AAR, COD & now reduced surface vessels to make up the CSG? After that time elapsed without the capability one questions why we need such a 'prestigious target' wallowing around. :roll:
Not into ships, but dumping all the Mine-hunters & some Frigates/Destroyers ahead of a new fleet of ships later this decade leaves another gaping hole in capability....that questions the absolute need to fill it?
Reducing the UK AWACS Sentries to just 2 barely able to fly, but only lasting to 2021 year-end ahead of the new 'force' of 5 reduced to 3 Wedgetails due in operational service 2023? :whistle:
Potentially retiring forthwith Hercules, Puma & whatever right away? More potential for shortages in airlift capacity....bring-on those civilian freight-hauler contracts! :cool:
Equipping with P8 Poseidon years after we lost the Nimrod. whilst the need for Maritime Patrol was served with RAF C-130J..... they're soon gone. We managed years without a dedicated MPA, but now we've got 4 so far? Don't hold your breath for the full order. :O
Capping RAF/RN F-35B at just 48, having financed training, simulator, maintenance,etc for a minimum 146? Infrastructure costs divided by 48 & reduced order costs must've escalated the unit price of each underwhelming F-35 B (Frightening 2) to well...frightening amounts. ;)
Scrapping early typhoons now, while Tempest is just a full-size Airfix kit. Clearly there is prestige, jobs, skills preservation, in developing such a advanced 'British jet' but it's still a international co-operative that isn't likely to enter service before 2040? We'll all be using matter-tranporters before then or dead from Covid 23.5.
On the subject of Nukes, I had imagined we already had a big enough arsenal to ensure any naughty Nation could be annihilated ....seconds before we are!
PS: Remind me what platform we are using to drop Tactical Nukes like the B61 Mod 12 since the Tornado was retired?? Still, I am impressed that a Typhoon popped a Storm Shadow or 2 up an insurgents cave in some piece of worthless desert. That's 'Value-For-Money' & you can't do that with a Dreadnought submarine either!
I'm sure my cynicism is not universally shared & I welcome any input that makes this bleak outlook appear better. :'(
I agree re comments, value for money, dropping or firing ordnance ,valued at gazillions of pounds into a mud cave screams madness !!!!!!

Pirty20
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:14 pm
Location: N. Notts

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by Pirty20 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:31 am

They should just build a dedicated aew helicopter platform (changeout when needed) and then a medium lift raf/aac capability transport helicopter with a 30+ year lifespan to complement the enormous amount of transport chinooks we have. 160 Typhoons (B61 capable), 100 F-35B’s and 100 tempest. My F22 is still in its airfix box because it’s s’mm. Top end a selection of business jets/A109’s and then low end ospreys for special forces/marine operations. Complemented with usual arrangement of transport/aar aircraft/battlespace command platforms.

Alf
Posts: 1239
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:08 pm

Re: Defence Cuts Overview

Post by Alf » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:33 am

Supra wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:03 am
Much like my favorite waste of Time & Money, the two UK aircraft-carriers! We hastily get rid of our highly modified Harrier-Force for small-change & scrap the Carrier, then about 11 years later we get the semblance of a single operational Carrier loaded-out with all 3 of our serviceable/willfully inadequate F-35B's & no credible AEW, AAR, COD & now reduced surface vessels to make up the CSG? After that time elapsed without the capability one questions why we need such a 'prestigious target' wallowing around. :roll:
Not into ships, but dumping all the Mine-hunters & some Frigates/Destroyers ahead of a new fleet of ships later this decade leaves another gaping hole in capability....that questions the absolute need to fill it?
Reducing the UK AWACS Sentries to just 2 barely able to fly, but only lasting to 2021 year-end ahead of the new 'force' of 5 reduced to 3 Wedgetails due in operational service 2023? :whistle:
Potentially retiring forthwith Hercules, Puma & whatever right away? More potential for shortages in airlift capacity....bring-on those civilian freight-hauler contracts! :cool:
Equipping with P8 Poseidon years after we lost the Nimrod. whilst the need for Maritime Patrol was served with RAF C-130J..... they're soon gone. We managed years without a dedicated MPA, but now we've got 4 so far? Don't hold your breath for the full order. :O
Capping RAF/RN F-35B at just 48, having financed training, simulator, maintenance,etc for a minimum 146? Infrastructure costs divided by 48 & reduced order costs must've escalated the unit price of each underwhelming F-35 B (Frightening 2) to well...frightening amounts. ;)
Scrapping early typhoons now, while Tempest is just a full-size Airfix kit. Clearly there is prestige, jobs, skills preservation, in developing such a advanced 'British jet' but it's still a international co-operative that isn't likely to enter service before 2040? We'll all be using matter-tranporters before then or dead from Covid 23.5.
On the subject of Nukes, I had imagined we already had a big enough arsenal to ensure any naughty Nation could be annihilated ....seconds before we are!
PS: Remind me what platform we are using to drop Tactical Nukes like the B61 Mod 12 since the Tornado was retired?? Still, I am impressed that a Typhoon popped a Storm Shadow or 2 up an insurgents cave in some piece of worthless desert. That's 'Value-For-Money' & you can't do that with a Dreadnought submarine either!
I'm sure my cynicism is not universally shared & I welcome any input that makes this bleak outlook appear better. :'(
We have 5 P-8s so far.. with the others due this year.. so expect all 9 will happen.

The RAF do not have any nuclear weapons, Trident is the only UK nuclear option all the rest are long retired.

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TonyO
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Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by TonyO » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:52 am

Fighterfoto wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:10 am
You were doing so well until you asked the question about what the RAF were using to drop tac nukes these days.
Fairly sure some enthusiasts still think its the 1990s.
You want the Aladeen news, or the Aladeen news?

f-4
Posts: 295
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:45 pm

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by f-4 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:26 pm

It's a fair point on AEW though. With Crowsnest no nearer in capability and E-3 gone at the end of the year those carriers are going to be relying on 'friendly' AEW cover for quite a while.

Alf
Posts: 1239
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:08 pm

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by Alf » Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:37 pm

f-4 wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:26 pm
It's a fair point on AEW though. With Crowsnest no nearer in capability and E-3 gone at the end of the year those carriers are going to be relying on 'friendly' AEW cover for quite a while.
We are part of NATO and NATO have quite a reasonable fleet of E-3s.. the RAF E-3s quite often use NATO callsigns.

Unknown74
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Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:13 pm

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by Unknown74 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:46 pm

Talking of the NATO Sentry Fleet, they cannot have that long left either. Any idea what they might have as a replacement?

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TonyO
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Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by TonyO » Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:57 pm

Unknown74 wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:46 pm
Talking of the NATO Sentry Fleet, they cannot have that long left either. Any idea what they might have as a replacement?
They are in service into the 2030s, they will be replaced by whatever emerges from the Alliance Future Surveillance and Control program.
You want the Aladeen news, or the Aladeen news?

Malcolm
Posts: 4281
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:26 am

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by Malcolm » Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:11 pm

f-4 wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:26 pm
It's a fair point on AEW though. With Crowsnest no nearer in capability and E-3 gone at the end of the year those carriers are going to be relying on 'friendly' AEW cover for quite a while.
Crowsnest Merlins have been flying from Yeovil for about a Year, and 3 have flown in the past weeks (ZH833/843/864. ZH829 hasn't been seen since it's jolly by road to Boscombe AFAIK, and ZH831 hasn't been seen for a while either). There have also been recent flights with a WHE1x type callsigns, and these tend to be aircrew training flights. I've no inside knowledge, but it wouldn't surprise me if initial delivery is imminent. Whether it'll be in time for the May far east cruise - not sure. This report from last year says they were contemplating deploying before IOC is reached.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... es-delays/

Carrier strike group coverage wouldn't normally include shore based AEW. It's Crowsnest and T45 Destroyer(s).

POL
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Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by POL » Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:27 pm

Isn't there a Crowsnest Merlin now at Culdrose?

EGDR
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Location: Cornwall

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by EGDR » Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:19 pm

Yup, ZH856 is at Culdrose with the radar fitted and another is rumored to appear soon.

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