Electric Cars. Yes No or whatever!

[slogen51]

The Mars Rover is nuclear powered by plutonium. The ultimate electric car but probably not that practicable on earth where we can't be trusted with social distancing.

A chap on the BBC said that using night time electricity costs £1.75 for 150 miles. That is enough for me to get to Luton airport and back which sounds good except the upfront cost of the car is nearly £30000!

I personally like the idea of a hydrogen fuel cell where the only by product is water but currently it is expensive to separate hydrogen from oxygen and there are very few places to fill up. Using wind or nuclear to power massive electrolysis plants may be a future solution to producing hydrogen, the most abundant element, cheaper to isolate and retail.

Current electric cars are powered by Lithium-ion batteries which are range limited and don't even think about towing a caravan!

I think I could tolerate a hybrid but the upfront cost again is quite prohibitive and apparently the battery needs replacing after 10 years which could knock the second hand value for six.

In an Ideal world a portable nuclear powered drive assembly would be ideal - it could last for hundreds of years ( or millions ) and be transferred into your next vehicle chassis etc. Not sure how the heat energy from the reactor is turned in to electricity - a mini turbine or thermo electric reaction?

Back on planet earth, conventional electric cars use Lithium in the battery pack ,most lithium come from Chili - so I am off to buy shares in the mining company!

In the meantime I am sticking with petroleum - sorry Greta!

[raptor9]

Slogen, I agree entirely with your views on this. A friend of ours in Croydon bought an bought an electric Peugeot, having previously had a hybrid. Fine for going about in London. Before lock-down he drove to Cornwall to see a friend, and found that charging stations were extremely sparse and inconvenient. Sticking with petrol for me.!

[Richard B]

Pretty much every car manufacturer is going electric, so no way out of it.
Company i work for produce for most car companies, and every project on the board over the last few years is for new electric models,
Our plant in Birmingham as a new line going in for JLR, for there planned electric vehicles.

Looking at battery cells they have stuff in development way out of lithium.
Warwick university are at the forefront on some major developments
With a planned battery giga factory planned just next door on the airport.
Look at battery like say the memory card,

20 years ago i bought one of the 1st canon digital camera, compact flash card was 32mbs yes mega bites, was ok.
Few years on out comes a 256mbs card cost me around £230. Nice price and not a sandisk.
As you can see over the years memory cards got cheaper cards got bigger.

If you was to say back then that we could have a 256 giga byte card you would have been laughed at. It was seen on forums like this back then as like man walking on the moon.
But here we are massive memory cards and very cheap.
Think i bought a 64 gig card from asda for about £20


Just like a early phone battery they, have improved pretty quick over the years.
Just like the phones themselves, would you go back 10 years and be enjoying your blackberry better then you new i phone.

My wife drives a new ford and changes it every 3 years. Electric for her will be great. Ford sales told her when they get going full on electric a model like her fiesta would be around 350 miles per charge.
Means my wife going to work 12 miles 24 a day only need to charge it once a fortnight.

Technology moves and improves very fast when all the players are going for it.

[pg1610]

With regards to charging the idea works fine if you have a drive or live in an apartment block that provides charging in the garage or parking area
what do people do who have to park on the road side out their home
can you imagine the insurance claims from people tripping over the extension leads plugged into you front room plug socket out to the car

its all well and good everybody saying all cars will be electric but much more thought into infrastructure needs to be looked at

or self charging batteries needs to be the way forwards (think they called it wind up clockwork toys )

[Richard B]

With regards to charging the idea works fine if you have a drive or live in an apartment block that provides charging in the garage or parking area
what do people do who have to park on the road side out their home
can you imagine the insurance claims from people tripping over the extension leads plugged into you front room plug socket out to the car

its all well and good everybody saying all cars will be electric but much more thought into infrastructure needs to be looked at

or self charging batteries needs to be the way forwards (think they called it wind up clockwork toys )

Maybe plug it into the lampost, easy start for a stop gap until better infrastructure is in place.
But think the long range user will be having to wait a little longer, like now.
Thou some cars now and definitely in the near future will charge very fast.

So super market fuel could be here still via the carpark with stations to charge, temps you to shop at asda have a meal or coffee etc, fast charge in a hour or so.
Get points for shopping spend over say £200 get a free charge.

They are solutions to the problem electricity is everywhere,

Kids find it easy enough to keep ones phone powered, the logic is being implanted.

[Nighthawke]

"Electricity is everywhere". If I were to respond to that in detail it would take ages! It isn't, where it is there are loads demand issues to consider just for starters. The distribution network is a complex system that needs greater understanding before making throw away comments.

[pg1610]

With regards to charging the idea works fine if you have a drive or live in an apartment block that provides charging in the garage or parking area
what do people do who have to park on the road side out their home
can you imagine the insurance claims from people tripping over the extension leads plugged into you front room plug socket out to the car

its all well and good everybody saying all cars will be electric but much more thought into infrastructure needs to be looked at

or self charging batteries needs to be the way forwards (think they called it wind up clockwork toys )

Maybe plug it into the lampost, easy start for a stop gap until better infrastructure is in place.
But think the long range user will be having to wait a little longer, like now.
Thou some cars now and definitely in the near future will charge very fast.

So super market fuel could be here still via the carpark with stations to charge, temps you to shop at asda have a meal or coffee etc, fast charge in a hour or so.
Get points for shopping spend over say £200 get a free charge.

They are solutions to the problem electricity is everywhere,

Kids find it easy enough to keep ones phone powered, the logic is being implanted.

Like the idea of a coffee in a supermarket (just about remember them)
I appreciate there will lots of none home options but untill they can sort of charging the car in a similar time to putting in 40lts its going to be difficult

maybe you could charge the car off the external phone battery pack ?

[Richard B]

With regards to charging the idea works fine if you have a drive or live in an apartment block that provides charging in the garage or parking area
what do people do who have to park on the road side out their home
can you imagine the insurance claims from people tripping over the extension leads plugged into you front room plug socket out to the car

its all well and good everybody saying all cars will be electric but much more thought into infrastructure needs to be looked at

or self charging batteries needs to be the way forwards (think they called it wind up clockwork toys )

Maybe plug it into the lampost, easy start for a stop gap until better infrastructure is in place.
But think the long range user will be having to wait a little longer, like now.
Thou some cars now and definitely in the near future will charge very fast.

So super market fuel could be here still via the carpark with stations to charge, temps you to shop at asda have a meal or coffee etc, fast charge in a hour or so.
Get points for shopping spend over say £200 get a free charge.

They are solutions to the problem electricity is everywhere,

Kids find it easy enough to keep ones phone powered, the logic is being implanted.

Like the idea of a coffee in a supermarket (just about remember them)
I appreciate there will lots of none home options but untill they can sort of charging the car in a similar time to putting in 40lts its going to be difficult

maybe you could charge the car off the external phone battery pack ?

like can you reverse the charges please

[jimbo]

Hydrogen fuel cells???

Quick to fill, zero emissions...but overlooked.

Electric just isn't viable at the moment, i don't have the time to sit for an hour every 200miles(if your lucky) to fill the thing up...5 minutes, fuel in, chocolate bar and on your way for 400miles.

[Richard B]

"Electricity is everywhere". If I were to respond to that in detail it would take ages! It isn't, where it is there are loads demand issues to consider just for starters. The distribution network is a complex system that needs greater understanding before making throw away comments.

If i was to build a new housing estate, like many go up all over the country every year
Electricity is there. Build a ind est like they spring up, the powers there.

Infrastructure is not hard if you plan it.

[slogen51]

I mentioned Hydrogen fuel cells in the OP

More investment is required to cheaply and efficiently obtain hydrogen via electrolysis from wind power etc

The Delorean version includes a roof constructed of solar panels so you can charge over night

[Nighthawke]

Infrastructure is not hard if you plan it.

Do you, or have you ever, worked in the electricity supply industry?

[jimbo]

I mentioned Hydrogen fuel cells in the OP

More investment is required to cheaply and efficiently obtain hydrogen via electrolysis from wind power etc

The Delorean version includes a roof constructed of solar panels so you can charge over night

And a HUGE flux capacitor

[pg1610]

I mentioned Hydrogen fuel cells in the OP

More investment is required to cheaply and efficiently obtain hydrogen via electrolysis from wind power etc

The Delorean version includes a roof constructed of solar panels so you can charge over night

Great idea for Dubai or Los Angeles, not so good in Manchester ;-)

[slogen51]

Better in Norway during the summer with the midnight sun!

I nearly made a very un PC joke about where the night solar panel charging system was designed!

[ArabJazzie]

"Electricity is everywhere". If I were to respond to that in detail it would take ages! It isn't, where it is there are loads demand issues to consider just for starters. The distribution network is a complex system that needs greater understanding before making throw away comments.

If i was to build a new housing estate, like many go up all over the country every year
Electricity is there. Build a ind est like they spring up, the powers there.

Infrastructure is not hard if you plan it.

Oh aye, its as easy as that eh! So you are advocating i move from the flat that has been our home for nearly 27 years, into a brand new structure that is usually smaller room by room, and pay 3 to 4 times more for the privilege of getting power to my future electric car?

There seems to be an ideology surrounding this that everyone who owns a car, can just go out and enter into a PCP or whatever and TAH DAAAAA! Everyone has an Electric car! The reality is too many children are living in poverty, others people are living way beyond their means and the infrastructure is not there to support the future that governments want.

I choose to own and drive older cars with the oldest 22yo, and newest 14, and i laugh at people i work with when they mock me because of their PCP base model specials. Soon shut them up when they realise my 5 have cost me per month, half of what they are paying a month!

The way things are going for my family is, my wifes 14yo Fiesta will be passed on to my laddie, and will be replaced by a 17yo Focus, because we live in a street of flats with treble car ownership than there are spaces for, absolutely no facilities for an electric car future, and no apparent plans to integrate those facilities into the building work going on across the road!

Should the facilities appear, we will look to purchase a Focus sized Hybrid or PHEV, but i dont think technology is there yet for a pure electric vehicle to meet our needs.

[Malcolm]

Looking at battery cells they have stuff in development way out of lithium.
Warwick university are at the forefront on some major developments
With a planned battery giga factory planned just next door on the airport.
Look at battery like say the memory card,

20 years ago i bought one of the 1st canon digital camera, compact flash card was 32mbs yes mega bites, was ok.
Few years on out comes a 256mbs card cost me around £230. Nice price and not a sandisk.
As you can see over the years memory cards got cheaper cards got bigger.

If you was to say back then that we could have a 256 giga byte card you would have been laughed at. It was seen on forums like this back then as like man walking on the moon.
But here we are massive memory cards and very cheap.
Think i bought a 64 gig card from asda for about £20


Just like a early phone battery they, have improved pretty quick over the years.
Just like the phones themselves, would you go back 10 years and be enjoying your blackberry better then you new i phone.

My wife drives a new ford and changes it every 3 years. Electric for her will be great. Ford sales told her when they get going full on electric a model like her fiesta would be around 350 miles per charge.
Means my wife going to work 12 miles 24 a day only need to charge it once a fortnight.

Technology moves and improves very fast when all the players are going for it.

Sorry, but no. The comparison between consumer electronics and battery tech is comparing apples with pears.

The reason phone batteries last longer today is not that the batteries are so much better, it's that the electronics that they power has become much more efficient - uses less power to do the same thing. Technology has improved to allow chip makers to cram more and more memory cells into the same sized piece of silicon. Therefore the same power source can power the device for longer. That can't happen for transport. If you want to transfer 4 people 100 miles at 70mph then those factors alone pretty much dictate the amount of power you need. You can tweak around the edges and shave a few percent off here and there (aerodynamics, better bearings etc) but the power budget basically is set. The only way to reduce the power required is to reduce the speed, or the weight, or not go at all.

Battery tech is very well understood, and has been for many years. The amount of energy you can extract from a chemical substance is defined by its energy density. Good table here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density
Lithium ion is less than 1MJ/Kg. Petrol (gasoline) is 46MJ/kg. There may be a few tweaks that can be done to improve the energy recovery from batteries, but you're talking about a few percent here and there, not some Moores law exponential increase year on year.

Commuting less than 100 miles a day total is doable in a modern electric car. A trip from Yeovil to Lossiemouth to bag me some P8's isn't, and frankly never will be.

[pg1610]

I choose to own and drive older cars with the oldest 22yo, and newest 14, and i laugh at people i work with when they mock me because of their PCP base model specials. Soon shut them up when they realise my 5 have cost me per month, half of what they are paying a month!


Should the facilities appear, we will look to purchase a Focus sized Hybrid or PHEV, but i dont think technology is there yet for a pure electric vehicle to meet our needs.

Sorry couldn`t resit is this one of yours then ;-))

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... l-56111876

[XWP29]

Had a Toyota and Lexus Hybrids in the past - loved the Lexus but some clown drove into the rear of a queue of traffic I sat in at the road works on the M1/6/A14 interchange and that wrote it off. I had lots of teething issues with it so fleet said no more. The Hybrid Toyota had 137K on it over five years when it went, Toyota guaranteed the batteries for 100K so I had no issues with it.

I’ve not heard how commercial vehicles of the heavy articulated lorries variety will be powered?

The cost of putting in a charging point at home is prohibitive as it’s all done by specific companies? Unless there is some sort of grant that I’m not aware of.

Hydrogen? Can it ever get going in our lifetimes? It’s had several false dawns. It was the the big hope for the heating sector yet electric powered air source heat pumps are going to win hands down for new build houses.
Battery technology is not exactly environmentally friendly at the minute causes disposal issues.

A funny story concerns a chap I know who parked his Tesla at an airport but forgot to book a charge point. After the return flight he had a long wait to find a charge point and re charge before setting off home. Running out of fuel isn’t great but running out of charge isn’t quite as easy as getting 5 litres of fuel.

Alternative power will come but it’s not for me yet.

[ArabJazzie]

I choose to own and drive older cars with the oldest 22yo, and newest 14, and i laugh at people i work with when they mock me because of their PCP base model specials. Soon shut them up when they realise my 5 have cost me per month, half of what they are paying a month!


Should the facilities appear, we will look to purchase a Focus sized Hybrid or PHEV, but i dont think technology is there yet for a pure electric vehicle to meet our needs.

Sorry couldn`t resit is this one of yours then ;-))

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... l-56111876

I have to say i find that quite insulting from someone who doesnt know me! At least you appear to have the right Make here, but not the model so maybe let you off!