Save Kinloss & Lossiemouth Petition

[Bluetail]

I wanted to draw your attention to this important petition that I recently signed:

"Save RAF Kinloss and RAF Lossiemouth and the Local Moray area"

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/moray/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I really think this is an important cause, and I'd like to encourage you to add your signature, too. It's free and takes just a few seconds of your time.

Thanks!

[urkles]

But where do you draw the line? Keep these bases open to the detriment of elsewhere? What about the economies of Wittering and Cottesmore? Of Lyneham?

But to be honest, due the location of the bases and the returning troops from Germany im sure everything will be fine.

Just my opinion

[Scoobychick]

Moray depends on the bases for its survival economically. The RAF and local communities are heavily interwoven and if both bases close EVERY business here will be affected. The effect of the closure would be catastrophic on the area - I know, I live here. The bases have made the area what it is and depend heavily upon them. For anyone who has ever been here and enjoyed taking photos of what must surely be one of the best bases in the country for getting up close to the action please help us in the fight to keep it open

There is also a paper petition doing the rounds if you're in the area, most shops and bars have one.

Please also join the Save RAF Lossiemouth Facebook page, we need all the help we can get to keep our base open. This area depends on it!

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Save-RAF- ... 8373655213" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Official website of the campaign: http://www.savelossie.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Twitter @savelossie

Thanks for all your support

[RichC]

So do the other locations that have air stations nearby. And yet they have been closed. Once the decision has been made, these petitions really do not help. Look at Cottesmore and Lyneham. The Government really do not care whether petitions are brought forward or not, they made the initial decision to close the air stations so why would they thing twice and have a heart for those who depend on the station being active?

At the end of the day, the Government, in this current review has made what, 750,000 people redundent from various military and private sectors. So whether or not it hits your economy hard is not really a thinking point for them (only your local area).
Military alone will face 19,000 people redundent and 25,000 civilians so its just a small straw in a big hay bale that is being affected as a whole.

Since when have petitions stopped air stations closing, can you give atleast one example?
Not being negative at all, just realistic. You can go against their decision as much as you like, it simply won't make a difference unless they overule their own decision on terms of a new idea to keep it open.

In reality what use is it for the RAF keeping all the Tornados up in Scotland when 75% of their time they are elsewhere in the country (usually Wales or Southern/Eastern England) on training ops (CAS) at the various large ranges and during exercises. So, what happens, they need to air refuel every time just to get to their exercise area several hundred miles away. Costing more money than it would do basing them at Marham.
My view might not be the same as others (certainly not of one person atleast) but i think its realistic in my mind. Its better basing them all at Marham in a more centralised location.

Kinloss/Lossiemouth are in the same book as St Mawgan. Well out of the way and at the end of the country. Not a good place to be when the Government want to centralise their squadrons/bases to keep them at a minimum. St Mawgan was an option for A400 and JSF. Lossie got it over St Mawgan (why i dont know) and of course basing the A400 at St Mawgan is silly because its stuck at the end of the country and not centralised like Brize is.

Good luck anyway.

[Ross Forsyth]

Not going to get drawn on the whole politics of it all,but Rich I think if you believe that the Tornado force spends 75% of its time everywhere other than Scotland then you are very much mistaken.

There is a big old area called LFA 14T.............Which funnily enough is the only place where the Tornado crews around allowed to use the terrain following radar 100% unless I am mistaken?
Of all the Tornados I have photographed operating at Low Level in Scotland the aircraft are usually travelling up from MARHAM not the other way around (4 gr4s hitting the LOOP is not the only Gr4 action in the country!)

There are probably 20-30 departures on a good day at Lossie,where do you think they are mainly operating???????

[RichC]

And do you seriously think low level operations are their main training profile nowadays then? They are used in Afghanistan whereby most of the time they spend circling at 10,000ft and above using their LITENING III pod and "only" come down low when doing a show of force or on a strafe.
In the Exercise briefings around the UK "minimal low flying will take place, most activity will be at medium level with low flying only taking place when needed"
The crews then report to their controlling authority on how many minutes they have spent low level to cause minimal disturbance.
I am not wrong when i state most of their time training for Afghanistan is taken up over Stanta, Salisbury Plain and other ranges around the UK including large scale exercises in Wales and elsewhere.
Since when do they need to fly down snaking vallies to train for Helmand? They would spend seconds/a minute or so at low level atleast in theatre.
So they can fly around that LFA up there all day if they want but their primary Afghan training takes place 'down south'. So i am not mistaken at all.

How many Close Support Exercises do you have up in Scotland directly relating to Afghanistan? The nearest would be Spadeadam and Otterburn and perhaps a few held on Tain with a TACP.
Where does almost all of the pre-deployment training take place? SPTA, Stanta, Wales and Otterburn. So yes, basing them all at Marham is common sense in todays role.

I think you have forgot that the Tornados role has changed. Gone are the days of Gulf War 1 when they flew low level over airfields with the JP233 and in are the days of 10,000ft+ with a pod datalinked with ROVER to the JTAC themselves to get an overall picture on their screen from the orbiting Tornado.

Bit off topic from a petition but it's "not" all low flying in the Highlands is it?

[Ross Forsyth]

Rich

Not going to argue with you as you are obviously another person who believes they know everything about anything,,are you a military planner by chance??
I mentioned low level because I am led to believe by CURRENT Gr4 crews that low level is very much an important part of there training for deployments to Afghanistan!
My mentioning of low level was because I am not someone who sits around at home all day listening to a scanner but prefer to spend my time actually watching the crews go about their business,hence my use
of low level as an example.

One of the areas of operation you mention (Otterburn) is actually closer to Lossiemouth than Marham as is the Range at Spadeadam so I dont see how Marham becomes a better location on that front?

I do understand tactics have changed as recent conflicts have shown,but dont try and justify relocating from Lossiemouth to Marham on the basis that 75% of the job is being practiced in English/Welsh airspace!

As my point said 20-30 sorties a day from Lossiemouth,I never suggested these were all low level so I ask you how do you manage with 20 Tornados hammering around SPTA/Stanta etc on a daily basis never mind the Marham jets which will obviously be around???

As for "Since when do they need to fly down snaking vallies to train for Helmand? They would spend seconds/a minute or so at low level atleast in theatre."

So are you seriuosly telling me that they would not train for as you say seconds/minutes at low level?? Get REAL! You try flying a jet at 500kts at 100ft for a few seconds and see how many miles of the landscape you are scattered over,why do you think the MOD still argue over the need to carry out low level training????


Enough said on my part,no doubt you will come back on to berate and belittle my argument but as someone who sees a fair amount of Tornado traffic I will bow to your greater knowledge

[RichC]

I don't wish to argue and i do not have superior knowledge, your assumption is incorrect.
I'm obviously not saying that all military training takes place above SPTA all at once am i? For that, as you said, Get Real.
I do not know it all, and i don't spend all my time behind scanners either. I go and watch them doing CAS training for Afghanistan rather that watching them flying down a valley in Scotland. Infact i have spent a large time in the field with the ground forces training for Afghanistan and watching/hearing the air assets doing their thing for the past 4 years. No i am not in the military but so what?
Having lived 13 miles from Marham myself and having them down here in Devon low level together with watching them conduct CAS frequently (infact i'm going to see them tomorrow conducting it), i have seen quite a bit of Tornado traffic in my life time also so your argument about sitting watching them down a valley is a bit off.
Not trying to belittle anything, but as you come from the area you are passionately going for keeping both bases open. I'm just saying, theres more to it and yes i do believe putting all the tornados into Marham is more central even though Otterburn is closer to Lossiemouth. As if they are at Marham, they are more central within the UK able to go all ways of the compass whether a certain range is near to one airfield or not.

I've sat and watched my local airfield close to flying and reopen to the Royal Marines, my other local'ish airfield close to RAF operations with limited flying (military) taking place now, the rest is civilian and no doubt more military establishments will close nearby, every darn area of the UK is affected somehow, not just Morayshire!

No argument created here, just a discussion/debate.

[Thunder]

Sorry RichC but from your posts on this thread and others it would seem that you are anti Scottish and would gladly pull evrything out of Scotland.

Your comments within the thread with regards the Nimrod(should based in Central England again) which along with the ones made regarding the Tornado are badly researched, just because you get a few Tornados flying the "Loop" or flying over the SPTA conducting CAS(one mission type)doesn't mean that all of them spend most of their time down there. It may appear that way due to the amount of photos you see taken there but the "Loop" is a bottleneck regarding low flying and you know they are going to come through it at some point whereas LFA 14 covers 85% of Scotland and trying to be in the right place at the right time is pretty much hit or miss more miss.

How does basing the Army up in the North of Scotland make any sense? There is no Training areas in Scotland except for a few large ranges at Barry Buddon and Ft George, nothing on the scale of SPTA, Castlemartin, Warcop or Otterburn.

[urkles]

[quote="Thunder"]Sorry RichC but from your posts on this thread and others it would seem that you are anti Scottish and would gladly pull evrything out of Scotland.

How did you work that one out? Been following this debate with interest, your arguements are based on, lets be honest, you wanting to keep the bases open because they are close to you.

personally I reckon they should close both and re open Bentwaters!

[Squadron Prints]

Personally speaking - due to my love of military aviation I would try to help ANY base that was closing - I live miles from Cottesmore but I signed the petition as I love the Harrier and all associated with it and I loved the place when RIAT was there!

Our military is changing every so quickly and doing something as simple as a click on a mouse is always better than doing nothing - if nothing is done then they have won anyway!

Kinloss's fate has been decided but Lossiemouth's has not - the community are making a noise to show how much they depend (and I mean depend) on the base - if nobody did anything then people will think that nobody cares - then it will be another done deal.

I say Fight, Shout and Scream if you really believe something is worth fighting for and I for one think our Armed Forces, our RAF/RN bases and Ark Royal are worth fighting for!

I clicked my mouse in support and I have signed umpteen other petitions - no matter where we live we have one common theme on this forum and that is the love of our military aviation. No matter where we all live and what bases are going to be shut I feel better in the knowledge that at least I tried to help in a little way to support those whose lives will change forever and probably be thrown in to turmoil by the stress of unknowing.

[Thunder]

your arguements are based on, lets be honest, you wanting to keep the bases open because they are close to you.

Well my main reason that I want Lossie to stay is that with being born and breed in the area, I can safely say it would have a far more catastrophic impact on the area, than Marham closing would on North West Norfolk, yes it would have a big effect but nothing compered to what Moray is facing. I don't want to see Marham shut either as imo both bases have a future within the RAF.

RichC is trying to justify his opinion with total nonsense with regard to both the Nimrod/Kinloss and Tornado/Lossie. If he doesn't want to sign the petition then fine but don't start sprouting off about how big a waste of time it is and being negative (although he believes he isn't). I don't remember him slagging off the "Save Cottesmore" petition and if Lossie and Kinloss are so meaningless to the RAF then why do they hold CQWI/TLT and the Joint Warrior exercises up here and not at the all singing all dancing Marham? I'll tell you why, because they both have immediate access to the finest and least restricted low flying area in Northern or Mainland Europe, as well as the most favourable flying days at any RAF station within the UK.

[RichC]

I find it quite insulting that i am portrayed as anti-Scottish just because i express my opinion that all Tornados should be based at Marham and Nimrods at Waddington.
I'm only trying to state that:
1. I don't see the point of all the Tornado fleet being based in northern Scotland out the way of everything
2. I don't see the point of the Nimrod fleet being based in northern Scotland because they were needed for SAROPs all around the UK and support the south west fleet of SAR helicopters more so than any other, even the HMCG in Scotland. They should have kept a couple at St Mawgan still.
Moving the ones out of St Mawgan was in my eyes a mistake.

How on earth am i anti-Scottish (racist) by saying the above?

[urkles]

Thanks for the reply and I have to agree with your points, but I just dont see that Rich C is being anti-scottish. Every base that is closing is a tragedy to the local populace, but I also believe that both bases will not go, I think one will stay because of the reasons you have already stated.

Maybe we missing the real targets for our frustration on here, maybe we should be having a go at the real culprits - politicians of all persuasions who have decimated our armed forces over the year. very quick to stand by them for a photo opportunity/publicity when it suits and then repay their sacrifice and bravery by stabbing them in the back.

[pikey01]

RichC is trying to justify his opinion with total nonsense with regard to both the Nimrod/Kinloss and Tornado/Lossie. If he doesn't want to sign the petition then fine but don't start sprouting off about how big a waste of time it is and being negative (although he believes he isn't). I don't remember him slagging off the "Save Cottesmore" petition

Actually I think you will find he did say at the time the petition to save Cottesmore (or any base) was pointless based on the fact the government dont listen. Hardly Slagging off, just fact.

[urkles]

Yes Jem, and reading my post it seems I missed a plural on year when I meant to put years. I personally believe the Defence Budget should be ring fenced on a certain percentage of GDP, but this has just dropped to 2%. I know we are told that this is now inline with NATO guidelines but it seems, apart from the US, that the british do more than our NATO allies.

You seemed to have pre-empted my views on immigration, which is in fact something I agree with. In fact I think you will see most of us are immigrants in one way or another! ( I used to have fun with my welsh colleagues in the RN about them being the only true englsihmen!)

I probably think more right wing than left wing but have some reservations about the billions in aid going abroad, i.e. to nuclear powers with there own space programme.

The fact is this, for years now the armed forces have been cut back whilst the opposite should have been true, they need proper support in wartime, which we have been in one way or another for the last 10 years and arguably longer. Also the money they have been given has been squandered by the way MOD purchase things, not all the time, but more times than it should( The Chinook fiasco being one)

Also, is it right that we have no MARPAT aircraft and and are getting carriers we no fixed wing planes on it?

I am certainly on the coalitions side on what they are doing but it doent mean that I have to agree with everything they do and say

Mark

[Thunder]

;;I

find it quite insulting that i am portrayed as anti-Scottish

How on earth am i anti-Scottish (racist) by saying the above?

Anti Scottish, yes, racist towards the Scots, no you aren't and far from it(I hope). But from your posts I stand by my "anti Scottish" statement. I'm anti Labour/SNP but that doesn't make me a racist does it. The word racist is used all too regularly nowadays and normally used out of context like you have above.

As Gill(Squadron Prints) said we should all support every base that is in the firing line, weather it be on our door step or not. Like Gill I also signed the Cottesmore petition as I know what impact it would have on Rutland, it doesn't affect me directly but if I can offer my support to such a cause then I will.

[urkles]

Thanks for the reply Mark.Thought I might get flamed for my post. Nice to have a measured response. I see you are from the same part of the country. I am in Chedburgh,just down the road from Bury St. Edmunds. Cheers, John.

No problem Jem, hope we set an example on here for others not to degenerate into a slanging match!

Im from Aldeburgh right on the coast, and saw what happened to the area, economic wise, when Bentwaters and Woodbridge closed. Did you have problems when Honington was shut down to aviation activities? Or did the RAF Regiment cover that? We were fairly lucky I suppose in the end, with the power stations at Sizewell and the Army moving to Woodbridge.

This thread is about the problems facing Morayshire, and I for one see one of he bases being utilised by the Army and also a deployement base for NATO and the RAF on exercise, I would imagine they still need these facilities for Joint Warrior?

Whatever happens with base closures, people are going to suffer, whether its in Morayshire (Used to love staying at Elgin while on detachment or visiting my Grandmother at Portgorden near Buckie), or here in East Anglia. Maybe the petition should be save the RAF.

Mark

[Squadron Prints]

So - getting back to the first post:

If you enjoy going to Morayshire for an aviation fix either once a year, once in a lifetime or every day please help keep the dream alive and give a wee click to the petition - if you have been there you will understand what it is all about and whether it does any good or not it will hopefully give you the feeling that you did a little bit to help others!
Lossiemouth is a great place to take photos too!

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/moray/

If you want to follow the facebook page then another click here would be great thank you
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/Save ... thandMoray

Thanks

http://www.savelossie.org/