RAF changed Dog grave wording

[Supra]

The re-writing of historical facts just to suit perceived modern sensitivities really grips my s**t, more especially when the word/name in question is frequently used by the very race/creed alleged to be offended as a term of endearment or greeting? You really can't have it both ways IMO.

In his brilliant piece entitled “Exporting the N-word,” Coleman Collins explains,
There are generally four schools of thought on the modified word “nigga.”
There’s the first and largest group — black working-class (but not exclusively so) people who say it casually because it’s what they’ve always done, or simply because they don’t like being told what to do.

There’s the small but vocal group of middle-class black intellectuals who claim to have “reclaimed” the word, to have turned it into a term of endearment instead of a tool of oppression. It’s a neat solution to a messy problem. It ends in “A,” after all!

The third group is comprised of the “respectable Negroes,” the bootstrap types, the “don’t you embarrass me in front of these White folks” crowd. Also largely middle- and upper-middle class, the worst of these would have us believe that if black men only pulled their pants up, stopped littering, and stopped calling each other that word, racism and poverty would come to an end.

Last but certainly not least, you have the extremely sympathetic older generation that worked to have the word eradicated from White people’s vocabularies only to find it shouted from street corners and blasted from car windows in the future they worked so hard for.

If White folks are interested in this debate, we should listen, but we should not assume that there is consensus within Black communities on the issue."

[Tooks]

Supra, all of that is interesting and may well be true.

It has little to do though with whether an organisation is content to have the word on its estate to commemorate a dead dog.

The RAF decided that it didn’t, and took action accordingly. It has little to do with racism in the United States but everything to do with it here in the UK.

[C24]

As a matter of interest, purely and selfishly for my curiosity, if any of those posting on this thread are Of non-white European origin, please indicate.

By pm if concerned

Although not possible, what would be Gibson’s view of this matter and does the fact that he cheerfully named his dog Nigger, did his opinion of African Americans reflect his use of the term or was it a reflection of his dog’s colour?

In the dog owners world there are black labs and yellow labs both loved by their owners

( as required )

Stay safe.

[Tooks]

Although not possible, what would be Gibson’s view of this matter...did his opinion of African Americans reflect his use of the term or was it a reflection of his dog’s colour?

Obviously, we have no idea, but it’s entirely possible that it was both.

I’m going to leave this now, it’s been an interesting thread, but I’m happy to have put an opposing slant on some of it and I’d just be repeating myself now which is as boring for me as everybody else.

It should be possible to discuss this without abusing anybody, so please let that continue to be the case.

[ChrisCwmbran]

You’re quite out of step with the organisations you train your cameras on, to be blunt.

The fact I like photographing fast jets does not and should not be taken as any endorsement of the views and/or values of the operators.

And for the record I grew up in Lewisham in the 1980s, an area with an extremely diverse ethic mix, and accordingly all my life I have had a mix of friends representing said diversity.

When I see a person, I see a person.

When I say All Lives Matter, I am NOT missing the point at all. I fully accept that not everyone sees it like that, however in the UK I think the majority of people think as I do.

It should also be noted that "slaves" were NOT uniquely non-white.

Sure the UK has done some things in the past that we now frown upon, but was I there? Did I make those choices?

No, they all happened long long before I was born and accordingly I feel neither guilty about them or responsible for them.

[SteveP3]

Oh dear, what a tangled web this has become.
Personally I am very saddened by the way in which the black lives matter campaign has resulted in a knee jerk reaction by so many. I have always treated people, irrespective of colour, as I find them. There are good and bad in all of us.

I have said from day one that ‘Black Lives Matter’ gives the wrong impression to those who aren’t black. All lives matter .... this should be taken as given.

The Bristol statue incident was pure vandalism and those involved, again irrespective of colour, should be prosecuted accordingly.

I watched with horror an interview with one of the campaign supporters in the days after Boris hastily put protection around the Churchill statue in London. When asked about the threats / attempts to drag this down too her reply was that she had never met him ( I would estimate her to be in her twenties ) and confessed to knowing nothing about him. If that isn’t just jumping on the bandwagon I don’t know what is. Churchill was no angel, he made plenty of controversial decisions and mistakes. He was however a great leader who stood up and led this country against the Nazi regime. If Hitler had won, I doubt that many people of colour would have the freedom they do now.

As for the Nigger headstone. What next ? Write Guy Gibson out of the history books too because he dared call his dog by that name.

Live and let live I say but don’t try to change the past, learn from it.

[DAVEBRAD]

coincidently the film was on tv yesterday pm, I've just watched it, and as the Eder dam went the officer waiting at base says "trigger", I was expecting Roy Rogers and bullet to come walking in...
I honestly think that since GF died in the US, and all this blm as arisen people have become more divided, for or against, and its worst now, I can't see a end to it.

[Bobcode]

Another sensible post, well put and well said SteveP3 !

[ChrisCwmbran]

Live and let live I say but don’t try to change the past, learn from it.

Sadly I suspect this is a subject where if it isn't called to a halt it will just run and run... and who knows where we'll end up.

[Tooks]

This is not really about whether anybody has a bad bone in their body towards black people, I’ve met many FC’ers at the fence lines over the years and they’ve been very decent people.

This is just about decency and courtesy.

It was an RAF decision to remove the name, maybe prompted by the BLM movement, but I don’t know. I support it, clearly others don’t, which is fine. It’s called a difference of opinion. I’m comfortable to hold my views on it, and presumably others are too.

My intention was to put a wider and alternative view, which I’m happy I’ve been able to do, and I’ve read and replied to posts with courtesy.

Again, we don’t need to fall out over anything, it’s good to talk about things rather than not.

[EGDR]

I have said from day one that ‘Black Lives Matter’ gives the wrong impression to those who aren’t black. All lives matter .... this should be taken as given.

You don't walk into a fundraiser for breast cancer research to yell that all illnesses matter.

The Bristol statue incident was pure vandalism and those involved, again irrespective of colour, should be prosecuted accordingly.

Should the people who brought down the Berlin wall, statues of Stalin, Hussein etc also have been prosecuted?

after Boris hastily put protection around the Churchill statue in London

That was Sadiq Khan's decision.

As for the [omitted] headstone. What next ? Write Guy Gibson out of the history books too because he dared call his dog by that name.

Live and let live I say but don’t try to change the past, learn from it.

Again, not a single person is changing the past. No one is rewriting history books, at least not unless what we know has changed regarding a particular subject. It's an offensive, disgusting word on a gravestone for a dog that won't ever be seen even by lots of people interested in the Dambusters. We are learning from the past in that we are learning that society has changed, and that society still has a lot of improving to do. Specific parts of history have always been omitted from some contexts where it is not appropriate - this is one of those. You don't get gruesome and explicit details of the Holocaust in primary school, for example.

[Philly1971]

I can’t help feel that the RAF have been put in an unenviable position whatever they decide. If they left the grave, they would get grief, leave it with an explanation, they get stick, remove it, they get hammered. Personally I think it should remain, but with a simple explanation that says at the time, in the U.K., it was just used as another word for black. My first memory of coming across the N word was from my Airfix model kits in the 70,s or80,s. The instructions were always multilingual, and I clearly remember seeing the N word in the list showing to paint the underside colour of the plane black. Therefore I have no qualms believing GG’s use of the word was for the same reason. However, for those who want the word to stay because they don’t see it as offensive today either I would ask would you still want it to stay if instead of the N word, the dog was called c@nt, and they said the phrase Weasel@r when they bombed the damn? Personally I think that would be hilarious and I would campaign to have the whole airbase names after the dog, not just the grave! Ultimately it doesn’t really make much difference whatever they decide, so I am happy to defer to others who think this is important. I am lucky that I have never met anyone in my life who took an instant dislike to me, and used a derogatory term to label me as something akin to some **** on their shoe, based not on my personality, but purely on my skin colour, something I have absolutely no choice on, or could change even if I wanted to. Perhaps for once, we should defer to those people, rather than just letting a bunch of white people decide yet again?

[SteveP3]

No Kyle of course I don’t walk into a fundraiser for a breast cancer charity and say that. But then they are not suggesting that just breast cancer sufferers matter and not mounting mass protests in support of their cause or creating vast disruption and damage as the Black Lives Matter people have. Their supporter on TV knew nothing at all about Winston Churchill or why they wanted to topple his statue but managed a slot on prime TV talking about the movement. Ridiculous ! As usual, idiots getting on the bandwagon because they have nothing better to do and it’s their chance of five minutes of fame.
Are you suggesting that the people who toppled the Bristol statue and dumped it in the dock were acting responsibly and legally ?
The people who brought down the Berlin Wall or the statues of Stalin or Sadaam Hussein we’re living under greatly different governmental control than we do in this country.
Does it really matter who made the decision to protect the Churchill statue ? There should not have been any need to protect it in the first place.
You claim that the name Nigger on the headstone is offensive and disgusting. Surely not in this context as a name. If the word was being used as derogatory expression aimed at an individual then I would wholeheartedly agree with you.

Sadly, you have tried to get your point across with rather weak and if I may suggest, rather immature comparisons. Society and conditions have improved dramatically since WW2 and it is a continual process. Yes, there may be areas of improvement still to be made but sometimes life has got to be a compromise. We can’t all expect to get everything that we want.

If as you say very few people will ever see Nigger’s headstone then how is that going to cause any great offence to anyone ? I again cannot take your objections seriously when you compare this to the history of the holocaust.

[Blackcat1]

It's all bollocks! His name was Nigger! Get over it for the love of God!!!l

[DAVEBRAD]

this all started years ago, when they took the black and white minstrels of the box, the golly wog of the jam jar...and pubs changing names.

[Bobcode]

It's all bollocks! His name was Nigger! Get over it for the love of God!!!l

Possibly the single most succinct and sensible post of the thread

[EGDR]

But then they are not suggesting that just breast cancer sufferers matter

Nor are Black Lives Matter demonstrators suggesting that only Black lives matter.

If as you say very few people will ever see Nigger’s headstone then how is that going to cause any great offence to anyone ? I again cannot take your objections seriously when you compare this to the history of the holocaust.

People will see it, however they're more likely to be people who don't actually know the context, which makes it a headstone with a horrific slur carved into it, nothing more. Imagine seeing that as a black man walking past. With the history of the word so inextricably linked to the systematic oppression, enslavement and murder of black people, I don't think there's many comparisons that are off the table, but my more general overarching point was that less family friendly parts of history have always been hidden when it's not been appropriate to have them so easily, readily and accessibly displayed.

[Blackcat1]

Dear Lord how do you people get up in the morning

[paddyboy]

Well said yet again, Gareth

[C24]

Dear Lord how do you people get up in the morning

Very kind of you to ask about my domestic life.
Early and one foot at a time. Make tea, harvested in a far country by hardworking slave labour, brought here by climate polluting merchant ships.
Radio four winds me up and I’m then about ready to go out to watch people being trained to kill their fellow humans. Yesterday it was a Grob which made a practice approach to 22 at RAF Cottesmore , sorry, that has been renamed Kendrew Barracks!

The next move will be a protest movement to change the village name to Kendrew. Can we start a new thread?

FC threads are better reading than most newspapers.
Thank you all for your views

Stay safe 🕊