Tornado to be grounded to save money???????

[Blackcat1]

Am i right in reading in the papers that this government is going to make yet another stupid decision??

The Tornado is to be groudned to save 7.5 billion?? thats all i says in ceefax, any truth in this? if so what the hell is replacing it in Afghanistan?? or do they mean just the Tornado F3?? Is it any wonder so many people have hypertension in this country!!!

[Gary]

Was talking to someone in the RAF while at RIAT and he said the Tornado's was the preferred option to take the cuts . Also in the conversation there was mention of the harrier force being asked to look into the feasibility of standing up another harrier squadron.

Heres the news report you mention

Threat to Tornado jet
By Tom Peck
Friday, 30 July 2010

The RAF is expected to ground its Tornado jet fleet after an assessment by the Ministry of Defence revealed that retiring the aircraft would lead to savings of £7.5 billion.

Scrapping the Tornado would save billions more than withdrawing the Harrier jet used by the RAF and Royal Navy, according to MoD analysis.

Defence secretary Liam Fox has been meeting with MoD officials ahead of the strategic defence review that will set a new direction for the armed forces.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 39187.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[garethbrum]

Here we go again!

[Blackcat1]

Does the government even know what aircraft is currently supporting our boys and girls in Afghanistan!!!!??

[Bluetail]

I live in Moray various rumours up here have been going around saying the BOTH Lossiemouth and Kinloss might be closed, and the locals are getting really worried. I suspect though its a bit of scaremongering by our press. Remember that the F3 will not be included as its already planned to stand down next year.

Best bet I suspect is for 2 Tornado GR4 units to go and the force to be consolidated at Marham. If they get rid of Tornado GR4 Britain will not have any airborne Offensive capability which is completely barking mad, in reality they will say Typhoon is able to do it (so why isnt it in Afghanistan then). Simple fact is that they are frightened to deploy it in case they lose one, even though it is just about cleared (if not already so) to offer ground support roles.

But as previously stated in many other threads, no one knows until October, except that the RAF will almost certainly be decimated.

This time next year my bets are that the RAF will only have the ability to support that Army and the RAF will be its bus service.

Thoughts on Defence review
FSTA Chopped
Nimrod Chopped
F3 Chopped
Harrier decimated
Tornado GR4 Decimated
Typhoon Orders reduced
A400 Reduced

[Blackcat1]

Its a very big worry for many people, imagine how many people would be unemployed if they got rid of the whole fleet!

[johnhowe]

deleted.

[Sheff]

I seem to recall that the story originated in a report that the RAF had offered to abandon Nimrod MRA4 and to retire the Tornado fleet prematurely as part of their pre-SDR bidding. One assumes that the "journalists" are now running with the story and they're simply trying to make as much out of it as possible, even though there's no telling what the final outcome will be in the SDR.

But as I've said many times before, I think the prospect of losing the Tornado fleet early has seemed likely for some time. Service chiefs being how they are, they are doubtless keen to protect their shiny new toy (F-35) as best they can, and they're probably prepared to sacrifice whatever is necessary in order to keep it. My fear is that the financial situation is so bad that they may find that they've shot themselves in their proverbial feet and they will ultimately lose Nimrod, Tornado, Harrier and the F-35. One assumes that their logic is based on the notion that if they abandon Nimrod and Tornado, they will get enough cash to buy/support F-35. The risk is that the Treasury may well conclude that F-35 is still unaffordable and having effectively offered Tornado and Nimrod for disposal, the RAF will have no excuse for keeping them. There seems to be a very real possibility that there will be pressure to standardise on just one combat type in the shape of Typhoon and my view is that the RAF may well lose F-35, Tornado and Harrier over the next few years.

The real tragedy is the very real risk of losing Nimrod. By offering to abandon it, the RAF is clearly demonstrating that they are prepared to live without it and having done this, it's impossible to retract that viewpoint, therefore it's difficult to see how they can keep it now in the face of so much financial pressure from the Treasury. It's all very well to claim that there is no submarine threat to counter (at least for now - one assumes that the RAF have put their crystal ball back into the cupboard), but Nimrod was to have been much more than that and it had the potential to fulfil a wide variety of roles long into the future - maybe even becoming a stand-off nuclear weapons platform if Trident is eventually dumped. Now it looks as if the "plan" (although "hope" seems to be more accurate) is to rely upon a dwindling supply of Hercules to tackle occasional SAR tasks, and presumably any other roles appropriate to Nimrod will simply be abandoned.

Whilst I can see some vague logic in offering to abandon Tornado prematurely, it seems like a risky approach if it is being offered for sacrifice in the expectation that the RAF will get F-35. It seems even more risky when one considers the recent reports that the development of a catapult system for the two carriers is being studied again, which suggests that the possibility of opting for an "off-the-shelf" purchase of Hornets (or resurrecting the navalised Typhoon concept) is still very real - which implies that the F-35's future must still be very doubtful. But then this assumes that the carriers will still be brought into service and that still seems very unlikely indeed.

It's a messy business and I'm beginning to think that even the SDR isn't going to be the end of the matter. I suspect that this process is going to continue until the carriers are abandoned, F-35 is abandoned, the Tornado and Harrier fleets are withdrawn, and Nimrod is dumped. I don't think this saga is going to reach its logical conclusion until we are left with only Typhoons. It's hard to see how any other outcome is sustainable given the nation's situation.

[Bucky P]

They might have to start arming the Tutors and giving them military serials to maintain an armed flying element!

[Blackcat1]

So gutting that this once great air force is quickly being destroyed!

[Bluetail]

So gutting that this once great air force is slowly being destroyed!

Should read...QUICKLY being destroyed...

[Blackcat1]

Correct!! edited my post

[Blackcat1]

Couldnt agree more 698, its shameful and downright upsetting, they are a let down to the brave people fighting in theatre. I say get rid of a lot of pointless politicians, bean counters and pen pushers, there are 2 many of them, either way its going to mean more unemployment!

[hertsman]

I suspect we are seeing snippets of the debate and options that are raging in the course of the SDR.

When a country is as strapped as we are, all expenditure must come under review. It does not necessarily follow that the decision has been made, but clearly the Tornado is a review item. Someone has obviously calculated the savings of this option and the review must then balance the cost of continuing or curtailing each asset or system and match this against the identified current and future defence needs. Reviewing all options is sensible management. The really tricky part is then making the correct decision when all options have been evaluated - and you sometimes do not know until a lot, lot later whether the decision was the best one or not.

The uncomfortable truth is that whatever colour of the government, many defence systems we hold dear were going to be put under the microscope. The announcement that Trident's replacement cost is now to come out of the MoD budget (and not the Treasury) has put even more pressure on conventional systems, although I am not yet convinced this decision is final - it too may be part of the political jockeying. The MoD has not done itself many favours with it's procurement record either. For as long as I can remember there have been very poorly managed acquisition processes.

For what it's worth, my personal opinion is that the Tornado is a potential cost-saving target. It is a more logical target than assets which are at the beginning of their service life.

Making these hard choices is just that - very, very hard indeed. However I say again that we are picking up snippets and we will need to judge the eventual decisions alongside the whole package of results that should come out of the SDR.

hertsman

[Gary]

I suspect we are seeing snippets of the debate and options that are raging in the course of the SDR.

When a country is as strapped as we are, all expenditure must come under review. It does not necessarily follow that the decision has been made, but clearly the Tornado is a review item. Someone has obviously calculated the savings of this option and the review must then balance the cost of continuing or curtailing each asset or system and match this against the identified current and future defence needs. Reviewing all options is sensible management. The really tricky part is then making the correct decision when all options have been evaluated - and you sometimes do not know until a lot, lot later whether the decision was the best one or not.

The uncomfortable truth is that whatever colour of the government, many defence systems we hold dear were going to be put under the microscope. The announcement that Trident's replacement cost is now to come out of the MoD budget (and not the Treasury) has put even more pressure on conventional systems, although I am not yet convinced this decision is final - it too may be part of the political jockeying. The MoD has not done itself many favours with it's procurement record either. For as long as I can remember there have been very poorly managed acquisition processes.

For what it's worth, my personal opinion is that the Tornado is a potential cost-saving target. It is a more logical target than assets which are at the beginning of their service life.

Making these hard choices is just that - very, very hard indeed. However I say again that we are picking up snippets and we will need to judge the eventual decisions alongside the whole package of results that should come out of the SDR.

hertsman

Very well said.

As much as it sickens me what is happening to our armed forces especially while they are engaged in fighting thousands of miles away. Lets not bay for blood until the full facts of the SDR has been announced.

[HighlandSniper]

Why don't the admins change the name of this forum to:

SPECULATORS 'R US

As speculating about the defence cuts seems to be the main topic of conversation these days.

You don't know, the SDR isn't complete yet, why not wait until it is rather than the constant "what if", "what might be" and "It's been rumoured".

How many different similar threads have we had now ... ... ... I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting seriously bored with it. All the speculation isn't going to make the slightest difference. It'll happen regardless of all the whinging.

Sorry guys, just my tuppence worth ... ... ... awaits the Armchair Air Marshalls to direct air strikes in my direction (runs, ducks, takes cover).

[HighlandSniper]

Yes, Tomahawk can carry a nuclear warhead, but the huge savings that would involve would mean the use of common sense, something which is in short supply in the MoD.

[Gary]

Where have the WE177's all gone ?

Marham still has one... In the history room



Sorry about the quality taken with my phone

[Snoop 95]

This is become like the 'death of a thousand cuts'. Every week we are getting claims from journalists that they have had a leak from those compiling the SDR. As Highland Sniper says above, let's just leave it alone and wait for the publication of the Review. All this tittle-tattle is very bad for the morale of those serving with the Forces and unsettling for everyone who depends upon employment in the defence estate. Alas, I suspect my pleas will fall on deaf ears!

[garethbrum]

The title of this thread would have you believe that it had been confirmed