UK to scrap some warships, helicopters and drones

[B787driver]

And will the new chinooks stay grounded for years while we argue about the software fitted?

[STN RAMP RAT]

And we shouldnt forget the nature of warfare has changed as can be observed in the Ukraine and the ME. The Ukranians and Russians are knocking each other about with drones, some of which are little more than converted toys. In the ME the US and Isralies are shooting down more sophisticated drones with misslies that cost hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Dollars each. As my Father used to say, when it comes down to it its the side that can build the most spitfires fastest and has the most amunition that will win.

There is certainly a place for high end procurement but our 35 F35's may well not last an afternoon if the S**t really hits the fan, and our ability to undertake another Falklands type of war has long gone. Our biggest concern should be the loss of the manufacturing base that can make the weapns systems in the fisrt place. we still, Just, have shipyards and aircraft factories and we need to protect that domestic capacity or the skills will be lost forever.

[Ravendriver2008]

And will the new chinooks stay grounded for years while we argue about the software fitted?

Hopefully touch wood and fingers crossed, no. However I was at the Boeing Luftwaffe CH-47F brief on the first day of ILA Berlin 2022, there was couple of individuals in the audience who touched on why the UK H-47ER program be delayed and taking too long, The gentleman from Boeing sat on the panel, squared up his shoulders and said he was flying to UK to find out what the hell was going on.

Bearing in mind at the time, Parliament had not released the funding for the H-47ER....

Service entry is 2026 ....

cheers.

[Vulcanone]

And will the new chinooks stay grounded for years while we argue about the software fitted?

No, because from memory the HC.3s were fitted with UK Specific kit which was the problem. They were refitted with the Project Julius FCS as per what the HC.2s were to become HC.4. the Mk 3 s then became the Mk 5s... Tony O may amend that but I recall going to at least 1 Press day that involved that.

[TonyO]

Service entry is 2026 ....

The Chinook helicopter has been a workhorse for the Armed Forces since it first entered service in the Royal Air Force in 1980. Over the years it has been upgraded many times. Fourteen of the most modern variant, the highly capable H-47(ER), will enter service with the Royal Air Force from 2027. Ahead of this arrival, decommissioning of the oldest fourteen aircraft will be accelerated as they reach their next deep maintenance period over the next four years. Current personnel will be unaffected and will continue to train, ready for the introduction of the H-47(ER).

[Vulcanone]

Perhaps its about time folks should remember, that it was Labour that was in power when all 3 Tranche contracts for the RAF Typhoons were signed. Not that it helps right now. Chinook and Puma were already a given, and 6 Chinook have already gone anyway. A bunch of the Pumas are already at Shawbury already.

Getting rid of Old kit for new

Don't forget, it was the Tories who scrapped Harrier, Nimrod, Jaguar, Sentry and Sentinel, leaving us with huge capability gaps!

Actually Bucky P.

It was Labour that got rid of the Jaguar, 6 months before its scheduled retirement in 2007.... But a quote from General Chuck Horner who was 2nd IC Planning for Operation Desert Storm after Stormin Norman, and worked on a USAF CD-ROM at my old employer. Who sat back one day discussing cutbacks from memory and said S@it Happens.

Even the USAF has got its woes with keeping ageing equipment, and suffers with Congress and Senate not letting them retire stuff...

But hey carry on telling us poring money into 53 year old Pumas, and the oldest near 45 years old Chinooks is a good thing. Does the US Army still have any that old?... You will have of course noted that even the USAF has retired 16 E-3s and most of its E-8s. (As another example of age).

[XWP29]

Perhaps its about time folks should remember, that it was Labour that was in power when all 3 Tranche contracts for the RAF Typhoons were signed. Not that it helps right now. Chinook and Puma were already a given, and 6 Chinook have already gone anyway. A bunch of the Pumas are already at Shawbury already.

Getting rid of Old kit for new

Don't forget, it was the Tories who scrapped Harrier, Nimrod, Jaguar, Sentry and Sentinel, leaving us with huge capability gaps!

Actually Bucky P.

It was Labour that got rid of the Jaguar, 6 months before its scheduled retirement in 2007.... But a quote from General Chuck Horner who was 2nd IC Planning for Operation Desert Storm after Stormin Norman, and worked on a USAF CD-ROM at my old employer. Who sat back one day discussing cutbacks from memory and said S@it Happens.

Even the USAF has got its woes with keeping ageing equipment, and suffers with Congress and Senate not letting them retire stuff...

But hey carry on telling us poring money into 53 year old Pumas, and the oldest near 45 years old Chinooks is a good thing. Does the US Army still have any that old?... You will have of course noted that even the USAF has retired 16 E-3s and most of its E-8s. (As another example of age).

Yet the main USAF and ANG tanker force are KC-135’s which go back as far as 1958? Age is not necessarily the issue.


It’s not so much the de mobbing of kit past its working life. But who scraps two landing ships 10 years early? For me it’s all symptomatic of a gradual decline. And who believes the Landing ships will be replaced? I don’t.

Only one thing to remember in my note to self. Those that don’t look to a very strong defence/offence armed forces are vulnerable, particularly with a history such as ours.

[Leuchars Fan]

Expecting a lot of outrage over this here but don't really understand why. Chinooks are expected, as are Pumas. Watchkeeper has long had its issues, though sad to see it go just as it starts being semi-reliable. The Albion class and Wave class have not been to sea in a long time, and HMS Northumberland was never going to see operations again. If those are the costs for keeping current procurement programs ongoing, so be it.

I recall not long before the General Election, John Healey declared, Labour is now the party of Defence. Is this simply a counter-intuitive manoeuvre? Or is he a lying so and so just like the rest of this very left leaning Socialist Ideological movement now ruining the country? Sorry to sound so pejorative, but a day hasn't passed without some example of how specious this shower are.

LF

It's not counter-intuitive if you realise keeping things in service for the sake of raw numbers or good headlines only doesn't actually help our defence capability. The retirement of the Albions was even suggested by the MoD before the pandemic but vetoed by the government. John Healey's spent the last decade hammering previous administrations with written questions and reports over their mishandling of the MoD, so he's earned some good grace. As for odd mumblings about socialism and the like, perhaps try the general chat forum.

Before you ask or insinuate it, I'm not a Labour member, supporter or voter.

So what is going to replace Albion and Bulwark? They may well be old and part of the reserve fleet, but they are going for no other reason than to save money. Same for the Pumas and, i understand, 14 Chinooks. These aren't surplus items, merely assets to be liquidated it would appear as far as the Treasury sees them. Mark Francois was on GB News today to say he fully repected John Healey and had worked with him on the select defence committee. He didn't blame Mr Healey, but the Chancellor. According to Mr Francois, Mr Healey is out of step with the inner circle of Starmer's cabinet. We'll get all the excuses, just like you've put forward, about how out of date everything is, but we don't have any assets to fall back on, there is no surplus, therefore everything has to count at present as what exists is in peny packets. And before you question it, no I don't think the last government did anything to absolve them of the same charge. All have dissmissed the nation's defence posture since the end of the cold war. I'll believe this government is "the party of defence" when things start moving in the opposite direction. And kindly don't tell me what I can post where and when, my comment about this government's left lean is entirely in keeping with their indifference to the county's defences.

LF

[Vulcanone]

Leuchars Fan

I suspect you haven't really looked into this that much have you, I might suggest a bit more research on various forums which will tell you a fair amount.

The retirement of the 14 oldest Chinooks was pretty much announced around the time they ordered the new batch of 14 CH-47ERs. If you look hard enough Bravo November has already been retired to Cosford and another 5 have also. I would be very much surprised if any other countries fly Chinooks as old (Iran maybe the only one). AND note they will be retired before going into their due into next deep maintenance service. 6 of the Pumas are already in storage, that leave 17 of something that is almost as old as me at 54. They will get something to replace Albion & Bulwark. Which have been sat around doing nothing for sometime as have the RFAs. As for the Frigate well trying to flog a dead horse is clearly not the option here.

[XWP29]

Leuchars Fan

I suspect you haven't really looked into this that much have you, I might suggest a bit more research on various forums which will tell you a fair amount.

The retirement of the 14 oldest Chinooks was pretty much announced around the time they ordered the new batch of 14 CH-47ERs. If you look hard enough Bravo November has already been retired to Cosford and another 5 have also. I would be very much surprised if any other countries fly Chinooks as old (Iran maybe the only one). AND note they will be retired before going into their due into next deep maintenance service. 6 of the Pumas are already in storage, that leave 17 of something that is almost as old as me at 54. They will get something to replace Albion & Bulwark. Which have been sat around doing nothing for sometime as have the RFAs. As for the Frigate well trying to flog a dead horse is clearly not the option here.

[/quote




Maybe with the Royal Marines being cut earlier there’s no force to exercise and man the Landing ships?
Or maybe watching the MOD minister on TV tonight saying he made all the decisions when the previous gov didn’t is wrong? Or is he being economical with the actuality.
I’d never remove equipment before the new equipment is up and running and it’s extremely risky to do so. So far we have got away with it.

[EGDR]

So what is going to replace Albion and Bulwark? They may well be old and part of the reserve fleet, but they are going for no other reason than to save money.

The Multi-Role Support Ship, due early next decade. A much better and more well-rounded design. The Royal Navy have been trying to offload the Albion class for a while to conserve money for current operations and future procurement.
https://www.navylookout.com/royal-navy- ... uirements/

Same for the Pumas and, i understand, 14 Chinooks. These aren't surplus items, merely assets to be liquidated it would appear as far as the Treasury sees them.

The 14 Chinooks have already got replacements on order. NMH to replace the Pumas is not on the strongest of legs, but even if it gets canceled an immediate 'no-competition' order to procure even a one for one replacement of the current Puma fleet, which practically doesn't number much more than a dozen aircraft, is not very far fetched.

And kindly don't tell me what I can post where and when, my comment about this government's left lean is entirely in keeping with their indifference to the county's defences.

I refer largely to the fact that political discussion isn't really at home in the Mess. For what it's worth, the largest standing army in the world is currently fielded by a communist nation, marching under a red flag. Defence is not a left/right issue. Hence why I question the relevance of the remark.

[Leuchars Fan]

Leuchars Fan

I suspect you haven't really looked into this that much have you, I might suggest a bit more research on various forums which will tell you a fair amount.

The retirement of the 14 oldest Chinooks was pretty much announced around the time they ordered the new batch of 14 CH-47ERs. If you look hard enough Bravo November has already been retired to Cosford and another 5 have also. I would be very much surprised if any other countries fly Chinooks as old (Iran maybe the only one). AND note they will be retired before going into their due into next deep maintenance service. 6 of the Pumas are already in storage, that leave 17 of something that is almost as old as me at 54. They will get something to replace Albion & Bulwark. Which have been sat around doing nothing for sometime as have the RFAs. As for the Frigate well trying to flog a dead horse is clearly not the option here.

So the story is they're being replaced? If so why is this story being allowed to run without clarification? Oh and yes you suspect right, ny first reaction wasn't to sift through various forums to find a rebuttlle. You say they will get something to replace Albion and Bulwark? Do you know what? Are the repalcements being built? Again this isn't the story and there is no clarification from the MOD.

[STN RAMP RAT]

Thread tidied to keep on topic.

[cat1]

Forgive me if I'm wrong (which I probably am),
But doesn't it seem wise to wait for replacementments first?

Ukraine or Israel could spiral at any time, which would mean we may need that kit even if it is old...

[Leuchars Fan]

Forgive me if I'm wrong (which I probably am),
But doesn't it seem wise to wait for replacementments first?

Ukraine or Israel could spiral at any time, which would mean we may need that kit even if it is old...

Hear hear!

[raptor9]

I wonder how much Income Tax we would be paying if we kept all those aircraft. We simply have to cut our coat according to the available cloth!.

[XWP29]

I wonder how much Income Tax we would be paying if we kept all those aircraft. We simply have to cut our coat according to the available cloth!.

Money is there it’s priorities on what’s spent where and at present that doesn’t include defence.

[B787driver]

Fully agree with that. So with a report a couple of weeks ago that there are more Civil Servants in the MOD, than there are total personnel in the Navy and Airforce COMBINED speaks volumes. Why can’t cost savings start there?

[Agent K]

……and so it begins….

Begins? it's never stopped, the previous shamble cancelled Harrier, Nimrod, tanks, reduced the Wedgetail order +++

[Rob666]

……and so it begins….

Begins? it's never stopped, the previous shamble cancelled Harrier, Nimrod, tanks, reduced the Wedgetail order +++

And the previous lot got rid of the Sea Harrier the fact is, whoever is in government do not have any ideal about how to run a p*ss up in a brewery.