Red Arrows in Turmoil ?

[herc15]

If they can put up 9 jets I see no good reason to replace them with another type with the huge cost that would entail.

They've failed to put up 7 jets for most of this season!

Sorry, to clarify was talking about next season, think its fairly obvious this season has been less than ideal in more than one way.

[teeonefixer]

According to Scramble database there are 15 airframes (XX177, XX188, XX202, XX219, XX232, XX242, XX245, XX278, XX295, XX310, XX311, XX319, XX322, XX323, XX325) not sure how many of these are fully converted smoking jets.

With the retirement of the rest of the T.1 fleet I should imagine this would increase the pool of spares as they RTP the aircraft at Shawbury so don't see why they can't continue with the T.1 till 2030 as planned. If they can put up 9 jets I see no good reason to replace them with another type with the huge cost that would entail.

As far as I'm aware (a bit out of the loop lately) XX202 is the most recent addition to the fleet, ex-100 Sqn and painted Red at Valley but non-smoke-mod equipped. Some of the existing fleet is getting to the end of their life (I guess XX242, the first Mod.2010 airframe and the couple of ex-display airframes converted 2015-ish) and replacements from Shawbury store have been earmarked. XX295 is the latest one to complete its smoke mod at Valley and I guess further airframes will follow. RTP has been taking place at Valley and Shawbury (Bluerigger1 can confirm). Airframes and fatigue life aren't a problem, but availability and obsolescence of some of the equipment must be a real headache. And with the closure of Brough manufacturing, I wonder if some airframe parts (eg for birdstrike repairs) may cause a problem.
Will be happy to take advice on that.

A bigger issue going back to 9 ship display is pilots. With 7 this year and some of them having been in much longer than the standard tour, it will take a lot of effort to build a new team. New guys will need a year or so to move into the demanding positions.

[Bluerigger1]

According to Scramble database there are 15 airframes (XX177, XX188, XX202, XX219, XX232, XX242, XX245, XX278, XX295, XX310, XX311, XX319, XX322, XX323, XX325) not sure how many of these are fully converted smoking jets.

With the retirement of the rest of the T.1 fleet I should imagine this would increase the pool of spares as they RTP the aircraft at Shawbury so don't see why they can't continue with the T.1 till 2030 as planned. If they can put up 9 jets I see no good reason to replace them with another type with the huge cost that would entail.

As far as I'm aware (a bit out of the loop lately) XX202 is the most recent addition to the fleet, ex-100 Sqn and painted Red at Valley but non-smoke-mod equipped. Some of the existing fleet is getting to the end of their life (I guess XX242, the first Mod.2010 airframe and the couple of ex-display airframes converted 2015-ish) and replacements from Shawbury store have been earmarked. XX295 is the latest one to complete its smoke mod at Valley and I guess further airframes will follow. RTP has been taking place at Valley and Shawbury (Bluerigger1 can confirm). Airframes and fatigue life aren't a problem, but availability and obsolescence of some of the equipment must be a real headache. And with the closure of Brough manufacturing, I wonder if some airframe parts (eg for birdstrike repairs) may cause a problem.
Will be happy to take advice on that.

A bigger issue going back to 9 ship display is pilots. With 7 this year and some of them having been in much longer than the standard tour, it will take a lot of effort to build a new team. New guys will need a year or so to move into the demanding positions.

I posted a list of the current Reds compliment (as far as I am aware) on the RAF Scampton thread on 31 August.
XX202 was repainted at Leeming and delivered to Scampton but not converted to Reds standard.
XX295 is also a non-smoker, the plan was for it to be fully converted to Reds standard at Valley but the black to red programme has been put on hold until next year at the earliest. There is more to the conversion than a few pipes, quite a bit of strengthening of the airframe needs to be done among other things. Unfortunately BAeS can't provide the required mod kits at the moment for whatever reason. XX221 and XX321 are stored in AMRO waiting their turn.

The RTP programme is only carried out at Valley and is providing more spares into the system but some items are still a headache to source.The next airframes to be processed will arrive by road from storage at Shawbury in the near future.
Another issue is "one off" components especially for repairs. Traditionally they would be produced at places like Abingdon or St Athan but that was "back in the day", we're in a different world now.

[teeonefixer]

Thanks Bluerigger. I saw XX295 at Shawbury and work was stop-start there, and I presumed XX295 had been fully finished at Valley. Covid and all that stopped visits.
Getting stuff made at RAF facilities is a nightmare. I remember XX348 (Frame 1 birdstrike) had bits made at Coningsby and Lossie and some of them were lost when it moved from Valley to Leeming to finish off!!

[bvs]

There is more to the conversion than a few pipes, quite a bit of strengthening of the airframe needs to be done among other things. Unfortunately BAeS can't provide the required mod kits at the moment for whatever reason.

I did 2 x smoke conversions at Dunsfold in the mid 80's,these were for 'attrition' Airframe losses - the original mods were done at Bitteswell so Dunsfold had not done the Reds aircraft before - other than trying to get the 'Dye' working with the much cooler Adour exhaust.
Even then it was a struggle to get certain parts - particularly the modded tailcones,I was left in the position of having to make up a couple of homemade templates to cut the required holes in the rear fuselage frame (Fr34 ? it has been a while )
Luckily everything lined up ok and I even got some money from the company for designing and building some test gear to pressure test the smoke pipes prior to engine fit - I had originally been told not to bother with a pressure test but there was no way I was going to fit the engine without carrying out a pipe pressure/leak test
Other than that it seemed fairly straightforward but with lots of little mounting brackets on the fuse frames to carry the 3 diesel pipes + air pressurisation pipe ? (been a while lol).

I do not remember doing any structural strengthening other than the normal mods and updates at the time - probably including sidewinder mods.

[teeonefixer]

Tailcones have been a constant problem, they were mostly modified for the Black fleet to be incompatible with the pipework, Some extensive repairs were required to keep them flying. The last couple of suitable ones were identified but not done at Brough as the repair cell was closing.

[Tally-ho]

A bigger issue going back to 9 ship display is pilots. With 7 this year and some of them having been in much longer than the standard tour, it will take a lot of effort to build a new team. New guys will need a year or so to move into the demanding positions.

Indeed. With anti-Reds sentiment building from both within the RAF and from broad sectors of society, theirs has become an uphill struggle. Then there is the Wigston element too ...

[Bluerigger1]

Tailcones have been a constant problem, they were mostly modified for the Black fleet to be incompatible with the pipework, Some extensive repairs were required to keep them flying. The last couple of suitable ones were identified but not done at Brough as the repair cell was closing.

Tailcones are still a problem, even more so when Brough closed the repair facility there., A number were waiting for a decision for months until they were sent off to Warton recently. Almost as if the issue had been completely forgotten about by MoD / BAeS when the decision to extend the Reds to 2030 ish but who can say ?

[teeonefixer]

We had done initial surveys and they were going to be sent to a new repair cell at St.Mawgan but this must have faltered.
pm sent

[Bluerigger1]

Cheers teeonefixer, good to know things were going on behind the scenes. All we knew was that the issue had been passed up the chain then silence.

[tornado17]

Looks like action has been taken against some personnel:

https://news.sky.com/story/raf-sacks-so ... s-12750486

[Red-Eye-Knight]

Looks like more bad news regarding the reds.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... eague.html

[Blackcat1]

Shame on them bringing the team into disrepute . They used to be heroes of mine .

[PeteHemsley]

Shame on them bringing the team into disrepute . They used to be heroes of mine .

Also of mine, but then I met them.

[Blackcat1]

Shame on them bringing the team into disrepute . They used to be heroes of mine .

Also of mine, but then I met them.

I've met a few over the years , in the days of Tim Miller, Guy Bancroft Wilson , Al Hoy , Adrian Thurley & many more ,I'm hoping they were more decent!? So long ago!

[reheat]

Surprised the ‘green eco warriors’ of the world haven’t managed to get them banned from doing their thing by now, especially the coloured dye they kick out. Don’t get me wrong, they wouldn’t be the same without the smoke! I for one have always loved the Reds and they have been great ambassadors for the U.K. Long may they reign….

[Discodaz]

i very much doubt it will make a difference to the team, or anyone else for that matter but they have lost my support. these people are supposed to represent our country. Show the world how great the Uk is.
what kind of messages are they sending out. And yet we still treat them like gods.

Darren

[Richard B]

Looks like they will be recomending the sqn is disbanded. And an apology from the top.

[iainpeden]

But if they are disbanded which team will provide the necessary time for a toilet break at a show.

[Richard B]

But if they are disbanded which team will provide the necessary time for a toilet break at a show.

Very few shows nowdays, can see even fewer in a few years time the way the green parties are going. Big airshows will be no more.