US pausing Military aid to Ukraine

[slogen51]

I am not anti Trump - i think some of the issues he raises are 100% valid

I am certainly not anti American i am not really anti Russian - I am sure at the end of the day all normal people want the same thing; A roof over your head somewhere safe to raise a family and food on the table. I am definitely anti Putin and don't think he should be rewarded for sending missiles into Ukrainian blocks of flats!

It is a horrible situation. Everyone wants peace but not surrender which I think will just kick the problem down the road and encourage Putin in other areas. But in the meantime people are dying although Ukrainians are dying for their country as our grandparents and parents did in WW2

These issues began I think with the spread of NATO eastwards to countries mistrustful of Russia. Of course USA are dominate in NATO as they are a so called Super power - largely due I think by not having the devastation of WW1 and WW2 on their land mass. After WW2 USA and Russia embarked on a relationship of mistrust and during the early 80s under Reagan embarked on an arms race to defeat the Soviet Union militarily but more importantly economically - the USSR just couldn't keep up and as a result the USA became by far the largest military power as a result of the arms race - Europe effectively had to "kowtow" to American dominance of NATO and accept the spread of NATO east

[KevinJ]

Basically, he tripped over himself buy saying some random country had offered aid,

Remember how they crucified Biden for doing that? Vance is worse than Trump and that's saying something.

Bottom line here is we cannot trust America anymore under this regime, trust them with intel or trust them to do the right thing by Ukraine. It's sad, I love America and have been many times and it kills me to watch what Trump is doing to it's once great reputation.

[James Cutting]

Basically, he tripped over himself buy saying some random country had offered aid,

Remember how they crucified Biden for doing that? Vance is worse than Trump and that's saying something.

When it’s someone you dislike, it’s awful, unforgivable, he shouldn’t be President. When someone you like does it, it was a mistake and these things happen. (Not you personally).

[KevinJ]

These issues began I think with the spread of NATO eastwards to countries mistrustful of Russia.

Not really, NATO has always been a defence pact, nobody has ever threatened Russian sovereignty. Reagan and Gorbachev presided over the best relations ever between the 2 super powers for a few years, Putin is old school Soviet and thinks along the same lines of controlling power as in the darkest days of the Cold War. Of course back then America was very protective of our democracies, now that's changed completely. We have relied on America for defence for too long but Russia isn't the old USSR, Ukraine pushed them back before aid really started to arrive because their conscripted army is woefully trained, equipped and led because most of their huge defence budget has been stolen before it reaches the front line. Even as it stands a combined European army, without the USA, would wipe out the Russians in a few weeks, especially in the much weakened state they are now, having to get hold of prisoners and N. Korean troops to fight for them. Of course Putin would hit the nuclear button then so a direct conflict would be stupid for everyone, but we don't need massive extra spending on defence because of Putin.

[cat1]

Basically, he tripped over himself buy saying some random country had offered aid,

Remember how they crucified Biden for doing that? Vance is worse than Trump and that's saying something.

When it’s someone you dislike, it’s awful, unforgivable, he shouldn’t be President. When someone you like does it, it was a mistake and these things happen. (Not you personally).

it is strange how the criticism has just been switched off in the US.

Apparently its because the border was such an issue that if someone is doing something about it then they don't mind

[Col Nago]

Even as it stands a combined European army, without the USA, would wipe out the Russians in a few weeks, especially in the much weakened state they are now, having to get hold of prisoners and N. Korean troops to fight for them. Of course Putin would hit the nuclear button then so a direct conflict would be stupid for everyone, but we don't need massive extra spending on defence because of Putin.

Exactly. You don't ask for help if you're in a good place. The Russian armed forces are tanking (excuse the pun).

As I've posted in this forum before, it's estimated that it'll take Russia a decade to get anywhere near their pre invasions strength due to the state of their economy, the massive brain drain and youth migration since the start of the war, and 800,000+ dead or wounded. Right now they can't keep factories at anywhere near the pace they need because they've lost so many people.

[cat1]

US just announced complete halt on all intelligence sharing with Ukraine until 'further notice'.

[baz1]

US just announced complete halt on all intelligence sharing with Ukraine until 'further notice'.

and Trump also asked UK to halt intelligence as well, heard that on PMQ'S on tv

[colp]

It would be interesting to know if the US are having any conversations with Russia in the background which won't obviously be publicised, especially between Trump and Putin. To me these "pauses" are going to speed up Russia gaining more and more land and quicker in the long run. On the flip side the idea I guess is that the quicker Ukraine really start suffering then a deal will become more and more urgent. Regardless of the minerals deal being signed, I can only see Ukraine being screwed over.

[KevinJ]

Trump is punishing Ukraine but hasn't done anything to Putin, what does that tell you?

[jonnewell]

Wrong. Nowhere does he mention country names.

France and the UK are the only 2 countries to pledge peacekeeping troops to Ukraine, if he wasn't talking about them then who was it genius?

if anyone read his speech in full (which it appears nobody did) he refers to counties that are anti US outwardly but then pick up the phone and offer to help. Someone like turkey for instance. Hence the 'hasn't been in a war for 20 years'.

Vance is a marine for goodness sake, he would have seen the UK in Iraq and definitely wouldn't say something like that about a country which holds at least two American airbases and goodness knows how many radar facilities etc.

The media have dressed this up to be something it absolutely isn't, and even politicians have been fooled (not that hard i guess ) . this is an example of yet another outright lie from the bbc etc.

I get the feeling certain contributors to this discussion ought to go into a pub in let's say Catterick, Aldershot, Poole or any garrison town and then quote JD Vance.
Let's see how brave these keyboard warriors really are.

Vance a marine.
The brave hero never saw combat.
He was a pen pushing journalist.

[James Cutting]

Who also hated Trump…oh did I forget to say that before what a formidable team!

[slogen51]

Just watching the news -:yes the BBC

USA ( Trump ) now withholding intelligence ( intelligence! That seems ironic) from Ukraine forces - talk about kicking a man while he is down !

It is very difficult to have a reasoned discussion - i literally don't know what to say!

Trump's mantra - making America rich again and America is back - seems to me like he had written his own country off?

[cat1]

France and the UK are the only 2 countries to pledge peacekeeping troops to Ukraine, if he wasn't talking about them then who was it genius?

if anyone read his speech in full (which it appears nobody did) he refers to counties that are anti US outwardly but then pick up the phone and offer to help. Someone like turkey for instance. Hence the 'hasn't been in a war for 20 years'.

Vance is a marine for goodness sake, he would have seen the UK in Iraq and definitely wouldn't say something like that about a country which holds at least two American airbases and goodness knows how many radar facilities etc.

The media have dressed this up to be something it absolutely isn't, and even politicians have been fooled (not that hard i guess ) . this is an example of yet another outright lie from the bbc etc.

I get the feeling certain contributors to this discussion ought to go into a pub in let's say Catterick, Aldershot, Poole or any garrison town and then quote JD Vance.
Let's see how brave these keyboard warriors really are.

Vance a marine.
The brave hero never saw combat.
He was a pen pushing journalist.

1. Whether Vance saw combat is completely irrelevant. If he's a journalist he would have known even more so that the UK was in Iraq which leads back to the point I made about the reference to the UK.

2. I have very close friends in the RAF and the RM who both said that they couldn't give a dogs about what any politian says.

3. Both of the above show that you failed to read James cuttings posts previously where we debated the finer points. And as far as I am concerned, that makes you a keyboard warrior

[James Cutting]

He’s like a petulant child. Dummies out the pram. Just embarrassing.

[cat1]

Ok I'll wrap it up

Have a cracking evening all

[Tally-ho]

USA ( Trump ) now withholding intelligence

Yes, absolutely. Zelensky has two choices -
- sign the initiation to a peace process (the minerals deal) or the US pauses their aid - simples.

Get this - the US is NOT going to keep funding Zelensky's unwinnable war. Nato's boss Mark Rutte also told Z the same.

And for all the bravado and Rambo talk of the EU / UK politicians, they keep nagging (yes the begging bowl is out) for the US to provide a "backstop" (security guarantees). Everybody knows without the US military muscle the bravado and Rambo talk . . . is just talk!

No signature = no US aid. Simples again!

[KevinJ]

You miss the point of the backstop entirely, it's so that America is invested in the peace deal and not there to just take the Ukrainian minerals and they know Putin would have to keep his word, something nobody can trust without a powerful deterrent. Trump's reluctance is clearly because he has capitulated completely to Putin, I'd love to know why.

[Tally-ho]

You miss the point of the backstop entirely, it's so that America is invested in the peace deal and not there to just take the Ukrainian minerals . . .

No mate, I'm missing nothing.

The USA is not prepared to provide a military type backstop for bitty-bitty UK and French boots on the ground. Everyone knows they have neither the numbers nor the equipment. If the bravado talk of Starmer and Macron re boots on the ground cannot be 'backstopped' by themselves, it is their problem and not a US problem. The US will 'invest' as regards Rare Earth mineral mining rights (economically), the US is NOT prepared to fund Zelensky's unwinnable war any longer with US military muscle / aid / intelligence.

How many more times must this be explained?

[slogen51]

Yes Tally-ho we get it - America are unwilling to help unless they get paid.

Europe will just have to stand up and literally soldier on against Putin's tyranny and I for one hope we do. Easy for me to say I won't be in harms way but we are at a watershed moment and we should be looking for a negotiated peace through strength.