Army, Navy, RAF severe cuts

[cj9ru]

Well, seeing as political statements seem to be allowed ( not sure why) I will put in my little bit....

Now this is just my opinion but....

As far as I can see all the political parties in this country are as bad as each other. They are all looking after their own political interests and not what really matters for us or the country. It has been this way for decades and as far as I can see little will change.

Would I trust any of them with my weekly shopping.......err ....No !

All parties behaviour during this pandemic has been disgraceful. Cheap point scoring and full of ' Oh we wouldn't have done that...'

Yes sure you would...and by the way that is no endorsement of what those in power have done. The whole lot are an absolute disgrace.

Now, I am off out to see some Typhoons down the road at Leuchars......oops.... yet another political decision.

I am afraid the essential truth is we are and have been very poorly served by politicians for years .

Let's keep this place for the enjoyment of military aircraft and park the politics elsewhere.



Chris

[Thunder]

I am afraid the essential truth is we are and have been very poorly served by politicians for years .

You should count yourself lucky that you don’t live in countries like Brazil, Mexico, Turkey and to some extents the USA. I think us British have got things pretty good , yes we all have our gripes and political opinions but in the grand scene of things we are very fortunate.

[TonyO]

Unfortunately, military aviation will always be embroiled in politics, its where the our airmen, soldiers and sailors get their mandate to do what they do.

Embrace it, it makes for a far more interesting discussion.

[CHINOOKER]

Not wishing to dismay those "EU devotees" amongst you all,but there are increasing signs that the EU project may be starting to fade somewhat! My son has lived and worked in Hamburg for the past six years and he says that both the business community and the population in general are becoming increasingly annoyed that Germany is constantly being seen as the "cash cow" for the rest of the EU countries! It was both France and Germany that agreed,(prior Covid), to pump the majority of the money lost from the UK's contribution,(some £30b per year),back into the EU.
Then along comes Covid....and whilst Germany came out of it reasonably well,many EU countries,did not! So along comes the EU and comes up,(yet again!),with a €500b rescue package for those countries worst affected,primarily Spain,Italy,Portugal. So who,once again,is expected to backfill the EU coffers?....once again the likes of Germany,France and the Netherlands etc.
From my sons experience,there is now increasing annoyance and disquiet amongst both the German populous and business community alike that they are the "bail out fall guys" once more! In light of this,there are many in Germany,who are becoming increasingly disenchanted by the direction that both Angela Merkel and the EU beaurocrats are taking their country,so much so,that many now hark back to the days of independence and the Deutschmark!
This disquiet could manifest itself in the upcoming budget there,where it is already being touted,that the military, will be hit with big cuts,etc.

[steamy]

you make it sound so clear cut... we're dealing with an unforseen event, not a preventable banking crisis.... anyone in the EU could have been effected as bad as Italy, Spain and Portugal. Money perpetuates, so you need to spend to make money. As jaded the Germans/Dutch/French are about it, it's in their interest, not only from an EU perspective, but on a general stage to get their neighbours back open for trading and tourism...

If you wanted to make to argument of who puts in whats, Italy are net contributers, Spain are around neutral, so you could argue, they are taking what they have put in, with Portugal being winners out of it, but it's not as straight forward as that.... Also, there are far worse net receivers, even before Covid, within Europe than the three you mentioned.

[pug]

you make it sound so clear cut... we're dealing with an unforseen event, not a preventable banking crisis.... anyone in the EU could have been effected as bad as Italy, Spain and Portugal. Money perpetuates, so you need to spend to make money. As jaded the Germans/Dutch/French are about it, it's in their interest, not only from an EU perspective, but on a general stage to get their neighbours back open for trading and tourism...

If you wanted to make to argument of who puts in whats, Italy are net contributers, Spain are around neutral, so you could argue, they are taking what they have put in, with Portugal being winners out of it, but it's not as straight forward as that.... Also, there are far worse net receivers, even before Covid, within Europe than the three you mentioned.

Agreed, far too much emphasis on financial contributions and very little on net gain. It’s a similar argument about foreign aid payments.

Apologies to mention Brexit as a quip earlier In the thread as I think this may have derailed the crux of it.

Someone on another forum has quoted directly from DC’s 2013 blog post;

"Given that intelligent adversaries aim to implement Sun Tzu’s dictum ‘to win without fighting is the highest form of war’, cyberwar and other advanced technologies offer obvious possibilities for ‘winning’ by destroying an adversary’s desire, or ability, to oppose - without conventional conflict and even without any obvious evidence"

https://static.guim.co.uk/ni/1381763590 ... cation.pdf

Quite telling, does anyone know which armed service is has the highest budget annually? I would hazard that the RAF must be up there with their fast jet operations. We clearly need QRA cover, to ensure protection of our airspace, but if in the event it’s decided that we don’t need such a large fleet for possible future commitments could some of the current fleet and future orders be scrapped?

[Agent K]

Interesting comments and thoughts there Pug and steamy, it's a complex scenario for sure.

I guess the issue is you get to a critical mass which is where I believe we are now, and below that it becomes impossible to maintain (deployed/combat) operations long term such as Syria, Afghanistan, even for a small number of assets. The Tornado force was stretched even with a handful on Op Shader when you need at least 4 squadrons to sustain long term, with 1 deployed, 1 returned, 1 standard and training, and 1 on work up. Below that has to be a decision to withdraw from such operations, which reduces the UK's presence on the world stage even more, just when it's needed more than ever now.

[CHINOOKER]

Whilst,I readily agree that some countries,such as Italy and Spain and Portugal,were some of the hardest hit by Covid, and i sincerely hope that this horrible disease,is genuinely a once in a lifetime one,it does not take away from what I said!. Even prior to the Covid pandemic, many ordinary German people were starting to have serious doubts about the EU project!. As has been alluded to,Italy is a net contributor,whereas Spain is neutral and Portugal being a net beneficiary,along with many others!.......And there lies the disquiet amongst many Germans, who time after time are required by both thier government and Brussels beaurocrats to "dip their hands in their pockets" once again to bale out others! This time as I said earlier,the EU bale out fund was €500bn, of which at least half,will probably have to come from France and Germany!. How long will this money tide over those countries within the EU who rely more or less solely on tourism,who knows....six months,a year,two years?, and there lies the crux of the matter!.....One day,somewhen in the not too distant future,there is the strong possibility of yet another "bale out", then possibly another!... For many in Germany,it is now becoming a case of where does it all end!!

[Agent K]

I suspect that once they see the third world like existence of a country once it leaves the EU then they’ll appreciate it even more.

[Tally-ho]

I guess the issue is you get to a critical mass which is where I believe we are now, and below that it becomes impossible to maintain (deployed/combat) operations long term such as Syria, Afghanistan, even for a small number of assets. The Tornado force was stretched even with a handful on Op Shader when you need at least 4 squadrons to sustain long term, with 1 deployed, 1 returned, 1 standard and training, and 1 on work up. Below that has to be a decision to withdraw from such operations, which reduces the UK's presence on the world stage even more, just when it's needed more than ever now.

- You want to maintain "long term" operations in Syria and Afghanistan?
- Tornado force? We are into Typhoon and Lightning II now! AESA radar and hyper modern technology e.g. multiple track and engage, pin point ordnance delivery, real time data and intel. From Sopwith Camel to Spitfire to jet fighter to stealth and unmanned ...

Your view about "world stage" is obsolete. The UK is not the world's policeman anymore, the Empire is (sadly) long gone. We have moved on, own home and hearth, the 'we' and the 'us' on these islands now come first. That reality is reflected in our modern day defense needs. And if you struggle with that concept, tell me from where must the money come to pay for your "world stage"? The UK economy has shrunk significantly because of China virus.

[Agent K]

*deleted and resubmitted below:

[Tally-ho]

You need to edit your post, there's something wrong with your quoting arrangement.

[Agent K]

I guess the issue is you get to a critical mass which is where I believe we are now, and below that it becomes impossible to maintain (deployed/combat) operations long term such as Syria, Afghanistan, even for a small number of assets. The Tornado force was stretched even with a handful on Op Shader when you need at least 4 squadrons to sustain long term, with 1 deployed, 1 returned, 1 standard and training, and 1 on work up. Below that has to be a decision to withdraw from such operations, which reduces the UK's presence on the world stage even more, just when it's needed more than ever now.

- You want to maintain "long term" operations in Syria and Afghanistan?

No, not really, just stating reality of what's happening and if the current intent remains.

- Tornado force? We are into Typhoon and Lightning II now! AESA radar and hyper modern technology e.g. multiple track and engage, pin point ordnance delivery, real time data and intel. From Sopwith Camel to Spitfire to jet fighter to stealth and unmanned ...

Through many years of working in the business and with family members running the programmes I am fully aware the Tornado has retired and am fully conversant (and familiar) with Typhoon centurion capabilities along with F35 capabilities, and absolutely appreciate you can achieve more with less, but my point about critical mass still remains. It's called planning, you need a at least 4 squadrons to maintain 1 deployed.

Your view about "world stage" is obsolete. The UK is not the world's policeman anymore, the Empire is (sadly) long gone. We have moved on, own home and hearth, the 'we' and the 'us' on these islands now come first. That reality is reflected in our modern day defense needs. And if you struggle with that concept, tell me from where must the money come to pay for your "world stage"? The UK economy has shrunk significantly because of China virus.

Oh I don't struggle with it at all, and am pleased that the "empire" is gone..... although get annoyed when they still beat us at cricket.... and I expect the UK to become just another small country, with small forces. However, again the fact remains that if the UK wants to keep influence on and participate in the global interactions of the world, and I think maybe you misunderstand me or struggle to understand what I was trying to say, not militarily and drum banging but economically and scientifically and technically and in other areas be an influential member of the forums and groups it has to play its part. I suspect it no longer will. Also, personally I still believe there is a moral obligation to be part of a team to carry out operations to protect or assist civilians caught up in war, strife, natural disasters or whatever and wherever that may be.

So do we see Tempest for example as world stage? or modern day defence need? on one hand you're extolling an AVM's "positivity" in Tempest procurement and development, amongst other defence matters, and yet in this thread you're asking me to tell you where the money comes from for an outdated concept? where it would obviously be cheaper to procure off the shelf than develop new..... Make your mind up?!

[Agent K]

You need to edit your post, there's something wrong with your quoting arrangement.

That went drastically wrong ………. deleted and resubmitted......

[david2222]

i thought this thread was about a report in a uk newspaper of possible severe defence cuts,not proven yet. whats it got to do with anti/pro europe, the inevitable break up of eu, world defence cuts, the kitchen sink and a tear in the space time continuem? is this thread full of grumpy old men who want to speculate about everything and nothing?

the title is Re: Army, Navy, RAF severe cuts from a newspaper report, nothing to do with anywhere else apart from the uk.

[TonyO]

i thought this thread was about a report in a uk newspaper of possible severe defence cuts,not proven yet. whats it got to do with anti/pro europe, the inevitable break up of eu, world defence cuts, the kitchen sink and a tear in the space time continuem? is this thread full of grumpy old men who want to speculate about everything and nothing?

Because our nation's defence is directly related to the prosperity of the country, if the nation is prosperous, we can afford shiny new fighter jets and maritime patrol planes, if the nation isn't prosperous, we can't. So leaving the EU, COVID-19 and a healthy economy are all critical factors. None of this is siloed, voting to exit the EU will have an impact on the RAF, Army and Navy as will a drop in 20-25% of GDP caused by the pandemic.

[Tally-ho]

i thought this thread was about a report in a uk newspaper of possible severe defence cuts,

Yes, it is, and what is your contribution to the subject under discussion? I note you have only made two posts since your membership dated October 2014, both here, without any direct subject matter re the topic under discussion.

[david2222]

i just said i dont believe the cuts will be as far reaching as the newspaper has said. there you are an opinion and contribution. are you the fc thought police?

[Vulcan74]

Maybe if we stopped funding certain countries in the first place who couldn't give a crap about their own people, then maybe we would not have to keep making defence cuts here & there!!

[TonyO]

Maybe if we stopped funding certain countries in the first place who couldn't give a crap about their own people, then maybe we would not have to keep making defence cuts here & there!!

That's a very isolationist view, the money sent to other countries in the form of aid, also helps to reduce the risk of conflict in those countries, instability that might lead to economic migration and other issues that arrive on our doorstep, plus the amount we spend is fairly small in the grand scheme of things.