Electric vehicles involved in RTAs

[C24]

RTAs, road traffic accidents. Acronym used to fit into the title box.

This came to mind during the crash recovery time at Silverstone.
Is there an easy, identifying method of rendering the battery safe for persons attempting to assist survivors in a road car, Volvo, etc?
The marshals seemed to hover around the car for a while before hooking it up for removal.


🛰

[raptor9]

Yes, that bothered me too. Max having to extricate himself on his own. Not good. Who, and how is the O.K. given to touch the car??

[Tooks]

Road going electric vehicles have systems that disable/disconnect the high voltage batteries in the event of a serious crash. They use pyro-fuses that go off when airbags are deployed or the vehicle otherwise detects a heavy impact. The high voltage battery is also very well protected against impacts.

I’d feel as comfortable approaching one to assist somebody as I would a crashed car full of fuel, put it that way.

[100arw]

Any sign of a possible injury and the driver is not moved until a medic is present - unless of fire etc. The driver is also advised to say put.
P.

[raptor9]

Ah, of course. I think I did know that after all. It's long been the system in Indycars in the U.S.

[gyvespa]

I’ve wondered about this in the past.
There is info on the Tesla website for emergency responders, underneath the ‘bonnet’ is a wire link on the low voltage circuit, when cut (section removed to prevent a short) it disables all the electrical systems.

But.
If an EV is involved in an accident how do you know it’s safe ?

If a ‘traditional’ vehicle is damaged it’s quite obvious that it’s leaking fuel. If an EV is damaged especially if the battery pack is breached how do you now it’s safe to touch ? We’re talking reasonably high voltages with huge amounts of current available.
Automatic systems to disable things are ok but the battery pack still contains all this energy looking for a path to escape. I’m sure fires are probably less likely than a petrol car and even they aren’t that common, except in the movies.
Also if the emergency services turn up and need to access the interior on normal car it’s obvious if the engine is still running, on an EV everything could be up and running and it would only take a touch of the throttle for it to go.
I’m sure the emergency services are kept up to speed and trained for all of this but I bet that the ways of disabling things are different on every make and model.

And don’t even get me started on all the different charging plugs and rates !!!

A couple of months ago there was an RTA, VXR versus Tesla, it had only just happened.
Everyone was out of the Tesla (4 occupants) which had spun and possibly rolled judging by the amount of damage, it also appeared to be a bit shorter. The VXR was totalled and still upside down. Didn’t look good at all.
Looked like the Tesla was the one to be in.

On a separate note.
There was an article on a US website a year or two back about the risks of Hybrids.
People were driving into their garages slowly on electric power and just getting out of their cars not bothering to lock them as garages in the US are often attached to the house.
Anyway car sits there armed and ready to go, gradually electrical power runs down. Car helpfully restarts the engine to charge the battery pack. Hello carbon monoxide.
I seem to remember there had been 25+ deaths in similar circumstances.
I noted this as our garage joins our house.

[Tooks]

If a ‘traditional’ vehicle is damaged it’s quite obvious that it’s leaking fuel. If an EV is damaged especially if the battery pack is breached how do you now it’s safe to touch ? We’re talking reasonably high voltages with huge amounts of current available.
Automatic systems to disable things are ok but the battery pack still contains all this energy looking for a path to escape. I’m sure fires are probably less likely than a petrol car and even they aren’t that common, except in the movies.
Also if the emergency services turn up and need to access the interior on normal car it’s obvious if the engine is still running, on an EV everything could be up and running and it would only take a touch of the throttle for it to go.
I’m sure the emergency services are kept up to speed and trained for all of this but I bet that the ways of disabling things are different on every make and model.

And don’t even get me started on all the different charging plugs and rates !!!

A couple of months ago there was an RTA, VXR versus Tesla, it had only just happened.
Everyone was out of the Tesla (4 occupants) which had spun and possibly rolled judging by the amount of damage, it also appeared to be a bit shorter. The VXR was totalled and still upside down. Didn’t look good at all.
Looked like the Tesla was the one to be in.

On a separate note.
There was an article on a US website a year or two back about the risks of Hybrids.
People were driving into their garages slowly on electric power and just getting out of their cars not bothering to lock them as garages in the US are often attached to the house.
Anyway car sits there armed and ready to go, gradually electrical power runs down. Car helpfully restarts the engine to charge the battery pack. Hello carbon monoxide.
I seem to remember there had been 25+ deaths in similar circumstances.
I noted this as our garage joins our house.

I’d not read about the carbon monoxide deaths from hybrids, but I guess that could apply to any stop/start vehicle with keyless entry?

At least you wouldn’t have to worry about that with a pure electric car, and they won’t recharge with the ignition on either.

We place a lot of trust in car manufacturers to make sure that cars will do what they tell us they will in the event of an accident, we have to hope that airbags deploy as designed etc, it’s the same with pyro-fuses.

Most modern EVs have their batteries very well protected.

Incidentally, most post crash vehicle fires happen when brake fluid leaks onto hot parts of the engine/exhaust, the flash point of brake fluid is much lower than even petrol/diesel. I was told that on a fire fighting course many years ago, I presume it to be true, I’d always assumed it would be the fuel tank being the primary cause.

Fire and rescue people here in the UK are trained in fighting battery fires, and they also know how to disable high voltage packs if for whatever reason the car hasn’t done it already.

[gyvespa]

I’d not considered stop/start to be a problem
But I suppose that if you get out of the car and the engine isn’t running, the same battery drain then recharge cycle could happen. You like to think that all possible scenarios are thought of by the manufacturer but the US hybrid reports suggest otherwise.

We had a brand new AMG Mercedes (for a week, hire car) it was fantastic but god was it complicated and trying to get out of a junction on a hill was like some sort of test of skill and coordination, unless you turned off the stop/start. Yes it could stall (even though it was an automatic) yes you could catch it out and yes you could swear at the digital assistant hiding in the dashboard. Hill starts wouldn’t be a problem in Norfolk but they certainly were in Devon and Cornwall.

Having worked in electronics for a lot of my adult life I’m wary of all this technology being put into cars. I’m not against it, it’s just that I know the amount of testing, inbuilt redundancy and cost that goes into avionics and I just know that isn’t happening in the automotive industry where profit and bling is king.

Unfortunately you can’t actually disable a battery pack. You can disconnect it, isolate it, shut down the systems but it still contains all that energy and in a significant collision do you really know for sure that it isn’t going to ruin your day. At least with fuel you know that as long as it stays in the tank you haven’t got a problem plus fuel is visible and has a very strong odour.

I’d forgotten about the brake fluid causing fires thing. I remember my father having a report years ago about the increase in car fires caused by catalytic converters, they were at the time a relatively ‘new’ thing and fluids spilling onto hot cats in accidents was causing the problem. Dad was involved with the Fire Brigade on the admin side.
So if a lot of car fires are caused this way then EVs should be safer as there are no Catalytic converters to get hot.

Respect to all our Blue Light Services.

A thought for the future.
Will there be adverts on telly saying “did you buy an electric vehicle? Did you you buy it because the manufacturer claimed it was greener and had a good range” ring our claims hotline or go to MyEVclaim.con

[ArabJazzie]

RTAs, road traffic accidents. Acronym used to fit into the title box.

Due to someone successfully defending themselves, using the term RT Accident infers that there is no fault in an accident, so these are now referred to as RT Collisions.

Incidentally, most post crash vehicle fires happen when brake fluid leaks onto hot parts of the engine/exhaust, the flash point of brake fluid is much lower than even petrol/diesel. I was told that on a fire fighting course many years ago, I presume it to be true, I’d always assumed it would be the fuel tank being the primary cause.

Fire and rescue people here in the UK are trained in fighting battery fires, and they also know how to disable high voltage packs if for whatever reason the car hasn’t done it already.

Not heard what you say about brake fluid in being the fuel for the fire, and i am not discounting that, but your reasoning is not correct. The flash point of AVGAS/road Petrol is around -40C, JET A1/Diesel 38C/52C, and brake fluid at 93C. Even considering Auto Ignition temps, its 450C. 245/210C and 300C respectively. Everything changes when fluids become a mist, and with hot turbos being a normal thing in cars now, any collision that causes enough disruption has the potential to split any brake, oil or fuel line that might create a mist that can be readily ignitable on contact with said turbo and exhaust.

Not actually asked my more knowledgeable colleagues how an EV is made safe, but any time ive supplied an old Mondeo for RTC training at work, they are more concerned about the number of airbags and the materials that make up the cabin safety cell in modern cars, and i think less roofs are removed these days because of this, along with advances in casualty handling.

[Tooks]

Incidentally, most post crash vehicle fires happen when brake fluid leaks onto hot parts of the engine/exhaust, the flash point of brake fluid is much lower than even petrol/diesel. I was told that on a fire fighting course many years ago, I presume it to be true, I’d always assumed it would be the fuel tank being the primary cause.

Fire and rescue people here in the UK are trained in fighting battery fires, and they also know how to disable high voltage packs if for whatever reason the car hasn’t done it already.

Not heard what you say about brake fluid in being the fuel for the fire, and i am not discounting that, but your reasoning is not correct. The flash point of AVGAS/road Petrol is around -40C, JET A1/Diesel 38C/52C, and brake fluid at 93C. Even considering Auto Ignition temps, its 450C. 245/210C and 300C respectively. Everything changes when fluids become a mist, and with hot turbos being a normal thing in cars now, any collision that causes enough disruption has the potential to split any brake, oil or fuel line that might create a mist that can be readily ignitable on contact with said turbo and exhaust.

I’m relieved my memory is at least half right! Thanks for the details around flash points.

I remember the instructor dripping various liquids onto a hot plate, and brake fluid was the only one that ignited without a naked flame. It was about 30 years ago now though.

I hadn’t thought about the airbag thing with regard to cutting the roof off cars, but that makes sense.

[gyvespa]

Quite recently I visited a mate. He has lots of vehicles, cars, bikes, tractors, etc.
And lots of kids including 2 boys who like to poke things with a stick and shoot at them with air rifles. I know, but years ago we all did stuff like that and he’s old school.

Anyway whilst drinking a cuppa I happened to stare into a bin of stuff ready for the bonfire and there on top of it was an airbag !!!
His Mums car had developed a fault with it’s airbag and he’d fitted a ‘new’ one.
He seemed totally unconcerned when I pointed out it’s explosive properties and the risk to him and his kids. I did remove it from the burn pile and put it out of their reach.

When we were teens we had a bonfire, someone threw a shotgun cartridge on it (minus shot) after a few minutes there was a loud whoosh as the powder went. Quite uninspiring. We fortunately lost interest and walked off, as we did so the cap went off blowing bits of flaming stuff everywhere ! It’s a wonder we survived our teens.

[Sparts99]

Years ago there was hoo hah about brake fluid starting fires in car crashes. The reason was reservoirs weren't mounted strongly enough to withstand serious impacts so broke off and leaked starting the fire. Fuel systems were securley mounted so didn't suffer the same problem.

[ArabJazzie]

Years ago there was hoo hah about brake fluid starting fires in car crashes. The reason was reservoirs weren't mounted strongly enough to withstand serious impacts so broke off and leaked starting the fire. Fuel systems were securley mounted so didn't suffer the same problem.

Depending on the severity of the accident and the reliability of the safety systems that back things up, those securely mounted fuel systems in themselves create their own problems when an engine is moved even slightly. With engines usually found in the place that is designed to move significantly to protect those in the passenger cell, there is always the chance for a fuel to match its limits of flammability, going on to find other "fuels".

[gyvespa]

Off on a slight tangent.
I actually saw my first electric motorcycle today !
It was pulling away from traffic lights in a swift and silent manner, quite unlike the scrote on the 125 with a noisy exhaust that was behind it.
It was quite nice to see

A bit later a Harley came past me with comedy apehangers on it, I don’t know if the rider was struggling to operate the throttle or if he had problems with his wrist. But it was all a bit unnecessary.
This made me think. Anyone who excessively revs a motorbike is soon going to end up on their arse when they are silent and electric with instant oomph.

Before anyone hops on and tells me I’m anti bike I’ve owned 50+ bikes and a scooter or two and I still have something big and grunty in the garage.

[Richard B]

Years ago there was hoo hah about brake fluid starting fires in car crashes. The reason was reservoirs weren't mounted strongly enough to withstand serious impacts so broke off and leaked starting the fire. Fuel systems were securley mounted so didn't suffer the same problem.

Brake fluid is still the major cause of fires, yes fluid reservoir is mounted back and made more leak proof plus the use of plastic covers over lots of under bonnet components.
Still the issue with the front wheels pushing back on impact ripping the brake line covering the disc that if heavy braking before impact, said disc is very hot or glowing.

[plmc135]

My main concern with electric vehicles is that as a pedestrian you simply can't hear them. I fear there will be many incidents as a result.

[Tooks]

It’s been mandatory for EVs to have pedestrian warning systems for a while now. My ID.3 has an electronically generated sound at speeds up to 18mph by which point tyre and road noise are easily audible, same as any other car. It can’t be turned off either.

Older designs still have noise generators that can be turned off or don’t have one at all. Our other EV, a Tesla Model 3, doesn’t have a sound generator as it wasn’t a requirement when it was designed. It’s hardly silent though, even at low speed.

Personally, I’m always careful around pedestrians in car parks etc, as the prevalence of ear bud wearing means even with engine noise I can never be sure they’ve heard me anyway.

There are a lot of EVs on the roads now, I haven’t noticed an increase in stories of people being mown down by one, but I get the concern.

[gyvespa]

Me again.

There’s been a couple of things in the news recently that have raised my concerns about EV’s ( but only by a very small amount ).

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/41735/ele ... or-old-evs

So if a particular type of charger can just be ‘phased out’ then that somewhat restricts the owner of an EV that needs it. You can probably still charge at home but this move would stop anyone charging away from home.

And

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57963912

Really, it costs money to charge your car, who’d have thought it ? What and businesses are charging more than if you charged it yourself AND they don’t make it clear how much it’ll be ! No, surely not.
So if you roll up to a charging point. Connect your car and the charger can see that the car is nearly ‘flat’ and you are desperate, will it still cost the same ? It probably will, but what if you are in the middle of nowhere. You think I’m talking rubbish don’t you, but look at the price difference for fuel bought at the local supermarket when compared to fuel bought at a motorway services. See what I mean.
Like I said before. I’m a fan of the EV but they aren’t going to save the planet. It’s all about the money.

Two more predictions for the future from me.
MOT’s
I reckon it’s only a matter of time before somebody gets an MOT failure because of a software issue.
For example. ‘ sorry Sir but we checked and your ECU hasn’t had the version 3 ABS Update and the manufacturer no longer supports this model. So I’m afraid that’s a fail ‘
Or
‘You’ve got a non standard widget fitted as the OE one is no longer available and as it’s on the CAN bus the manufacturer won’t guarantee the safe operation of the vehicle’

Smart Meters
Remember that we are only using the first generations of smart meters and they aren’t really that smart. Future versions are will know what’s connected to them ( So they will know when you are charging up your car ). One of the plans for the future to streamline the grid is load shedding. This is basically turning things off that are stressing the grid.
So in high demand situations instead of supplying more electricity you just reroute what you already have. It’s a tongue-in-cheek example but just assume that everyone is watching the World Cup then goes and makes a cuppa during the adverts. Instead of firing up a Hydro Electric supply they just turn off all the car chargers. I know it’s unlikely but you can see what I’m saying.
So what happens if instead, a power station fails overnight or part of the grid goes down.
Yep, it’s a Bus to work day as your car didn’t get charged last night.
Also.
The substation behind our house regularly used to trip out. It has a 400 amp fuse which blows. When Dr Grid comes and checks it with his very well insulated meter it’s usually pulling about 230 amps at idle during a warm afternoon and it doesn’t even supply that many homes. I asked about what will happen when we move to EV’s and he just laughed and laughed and laughed some more. I found it very reassuring.

And finally, this always makes me smile

https://xkcd.com/927/

Good day to you all.

[Nighthawke]

Just to note that second generation smart meters are now being fitted.

Does the sub still trip out? If so then there must be a fault other than overload.

[Tooks]

Me again.

There’s been a couple of things in the news recently that have raised my concerns about EV’s ( but only by a very small amount ).

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/41735/ele ... or-old-evs

So if a particular type of charger can just be ‘phased out’ then that somewhat restricts the owner of an EV that needs it. You can probably still charge at home but this move would stop anyone charging away from home.

Like I said before. I’m a fan of the EV but they aren’t going to save the planet. It’s all about the money.

EVs are not about saving the planet, they’re about doing something in a more sustainable and less impactful way. We need oil, it’s valuable stuff outside of personal transport, it’s actually a waste to just burn it when a better alternative is available.

On the Chademo connector thing, we always have different formats of everything in the early days, it’s still the dominant connector in Japan and will continue to be so. Here in Europe, CCS 2 is the standard, even Tesla switched to it for their cars, but there are still Chademo plugged rapid chargers being installed every day, although numbers will reflect the demand for them. CCS2 is now the standard.

So in high demand situations instead of supplying more electricity you just reroute what you already have. It’s a tongue-in-cheek example but just assume that everyone is watching the World Cup then goes and makes a cuppa during the adverts. Instead of firing up a Hydro Electric supply they just turn off all the car chargers. I know it’s unlikely but you can see what I’m saying.

Even better than that, imagine everybody is watching the World Cup and goes to make a cuppa, and instead of just switching off the car chargers they instead take a little power from the millions of cars plugged in to cover the peak.

Vehicle to grid is a thing, and is being trialled at scale as we speak.

EVs won’t fix a broken world, but they present a lot of opportunities along with any issues.