Will Sunak Survive Until The Election

[Tally-ho]

The trouble with proportional representation is that you always end up with minority rule. In order to form a government the larger parties have to form a coalition with the smaller parties who will always hold out for their minority wishes.

No, the larger party appoints the Prime Minister and most other senior Cabinet posts. The smaller party (or parties) get positions reflecting their percentage of vote.

The problem with PR is that we could end up with Ed Davey actually having to make a decision.

Yes, you could. We survived Gordon Brown in 2008. Comrade Corbyn was trashed in 2019. The Tories will be judged this year after multiple Prime Ministers the past five years. We have and will survive.

As a reminder we had a PR referendum back in 2011, the country voted against it. Ita amazing how many people seem to have forgotten it.

No, it was a referendum on the Alternative Vote. Nothing to do with proportional representation.

I don't like the sound of PR in fact I think in some ways it's undemocratic!! For example you could never really get a party out of government; Conservative or Labour would be ever present in large numbers in a coalition even with dwindling popularity. Also of course coalition governments can be held to 'ransom' by having to deal with more extreme minorities.

Nonsense.

A government is formed by virtue of an election in which voters express their choices. Voters trashed comrade Corbyn in 2019, he / they "extreme minorities" you refer to, never got close to power! The Brits do not do extremities in politics.

The UK has two dominating parties precisely because there is no proportional representation! The system needs changing, democracy in the Commons needs wider representation.

[slogen51]

Nonsense - charming!

Under PR you would still have two large parties sharing power but also having to deals with far left and far right

First past the post works best with a strong opposition

As you say the Tories will be judged and quite rightly we are likely to have a change of government - under PR however they would still be a large minority in a coalition which is what you clearly don't understand

"government is formed by virtue of an election in which voters express their choices. Voters trashed comrade Corbyn in 2019, he / they "extreme minorities" you refer to, never got close to power! The Brits do not do extremities in politics."

Because we have a first past the post system - under PR Corbyn would have had much more influence

"The Brits do not do extremities in politics." - that is what i said if you bothered to read other people's posts rather than pontificating about the British electoral system.

[Tally-ho]

Under PR you would still have two large parties sharing power but also having to deals with far left and far right

As you say the Tories will be judged and quite rightly we are likely to have a change of government - under PR however they would still be a large minority in a coalition which is what you clearly don't understand

Because we have a first past the post system - under PR Corbyn would have had much more influence

Two large parties won't share power, one large party will form the government. A coalition only comes about when there is no majority to form a government. Corbyn does not enter the equation, nobody would coalesce with him.

[slogen51]

I know - I am sure we are all fully aware of that - under a first past the post system. But you were making the case for PR and I am saying that is a recipe for a coalition containing large parties who have dwindling support - that is what PR is , isn't it?

[XWP29]

I’m happy to stay with FPTP, it’s the quality of candidates available that is the concern. For me it’s just not the issue it’s the lurching of different directions. It’s a fact that Ministers seldom have any knowledge or experience of the departments they lead.
That’s madness. I’d be looking to reform and strengthen the leadership of key government departments. The Permanent secretaries and senior civil servants should be recruited from the areas the departments have responsibility for:
NHS - Health Professionals Doctors Nurses and Pharma
MOD - Ex Mil
Local Government - Former CEO’s of LA’s
Farming - Farmer Agricultural Professional
On so on.
In my view this would bring some operational experience, provide advice and hopefully some stability to support the minister.

Our need for better government has to be a level above the voting method surely?

[Tally-ho]

But you were making the case for PR and I am saying that is a recipe for a coalition containing large parties who have dwindling support - that is what PR is , isn't it?

Large parties "who have dwindling support" will soon become small parties - once voters have spoken. Under PR even a large party may need to strike a deal (coalition) with a small party in order to form a government - in the UK with 650 parliamentarians that means you need 326 to form a government.

The positives of Proportional Representation -
- more responsible policies that reflect the will of the people, and not policies that suit the party grandees and bosses, ignoring the will of the voters once they are in government.
- more responsible government because the checks and balances between coalition partners ensures ‘dotting the i and crossing the t’.
- more diligence and honesty because sweeping things under the carpet is no longer possible, with coalition partners watching each other - collective responsibility.
- more feedback to constituents because there is more than just one party forming the government.

In short - politicians talking nonsense will cost their party a percentage of seats in parliament, not just the loss of a constituency, but direct ramifications for the whole party.

In the words of Abraham Lincoln - "government of the people, by the people, for the people" - in the broadest sense of democracy.

[XWP29]

But you were making the case for PR and I am saying that is a recipe for a coalition containing large parties who have dwindling support - that is what PR is , isn't it?

Large parties "who have dwindling support" will soon become small parties - once voters have spoken. Under PR even a large party may need to strike a deal (coalition) with a small party in order to form a government - in the UK with 650 parliamentarians that means you need 326 to form a government.

The positives of Proportional Representation -
- more responsible policies that reflect the will of the people, and not policies that suit the party grandees and bosses, ignoring the will of the voters once they are in government.
- more responsible government because the checks and balances between coalition partners ensures ‘dotting the i and crossing the t’.
- more diligence and honesty because sweeping things under the carpet is no longer possible, with coalition partners watching each other - collective responsibility.
- more feedback to constituents because there is more than just one party forming the government.

In short - politicians talking nonsense will cost their party a percentage of seats in parliament, not just the loss of a constituency, but direct ramifications for the whole party.

In the words of Abraham Lincoln - "government of the people, by the people, for the people" - in the broadest sense of democracy.

Also leads to parties like Eco parties having minority pockets of local Government seats on low turnouts then applying 20 mph zones and telling older voters to walk as cars are bad.
PR is just a side show for those parties that can’t garner nationwide support. There’s little appetite for it.

It’s not going to happen.

[atech]

Look at what is happening in Holland. Geert wilders party got lions share of the votes, but didn’t gain enough seats to form a government. Therefore he has to form a coalition with other parties. None of the smaller parties will coalesce unless he changes the policies upon which he was elected. Stalemate and minority rule.

The Dutch people have spoken but clearly didn’t know what they were doing. I had some interesting discussions about this when I travelled recently with a group of Dutch friends.

It doesn’t matter whether you agree with the policies, but democracy is base on majority rule, you have to accept the majority decision and not sulk and be disruptive just because you didn’t win.

We in the uk of all people should understand this, look want happened after the Brexit vote.

As my wife says there are no grown ups in politics any more, the lunatics are running the asylum.

Perhaps as suggested above, you should not be allowed to become an mp until you have reached a certain age and have a number of years of real life experience.

[Nighthawke]

A former colleague one said anyone wanting to be an MP should automatically be barred from becoming one Their usual motive seems to be self interest rather than that of the people they represent.

[TommyC]

Will Sunak survive untill the election?
I really hope not!!!

But as the Tories seem beholden by liars any new breath of fresh air Tory Leader won't make a jot of difference.... Bring back Truss!!
The only Tory Leader/ Prospective Tory Leader to attempt a different path. Granted Truss crashed the economy and is costing me an extra £238 per month on my mortgage! THAT'S A LOT OF MONEY!

Anyone who thinks politicians are all the same is totally barking! Blind! Deaf! And probably reads dribble rising gumpf from the same deadbeats that help fund the Tory party.

PR won't ever happen while the Tories are in charge.... If you are a political party who can effect change by claiming overall control even if you have to wait decades, FPTP can still be seen as advantageous.

As for Starmer FPTP - I suspect he won't entertain it, especially if the polling is correct. And why should he, if he does have control of the government it will take years to make all the changes. PR is not always effective for a quick paced government, different countries have very different results with PR.

On FPTP / PR I don't mind either way.

I just want to see a fairer world where young people can aspire to live in a place they can call home with stability and affordability, put food on the table and have enough money to look forward to enjoying life. I shall stick with Labour (just incase you need a prompt to my voting intent).

[slogen51]

I think one issue with Labour is that you don't know what type of Labour party you are voting for or are going to get:

A) "New Labour" which endorses both public and private sectors

Or

B) "Momentum" supporting more radical social change policies?

I personally for my sins vote conservative but like to think I am an old school ' one nation Tory '

[iainpeden]

One nation Toryism is probably closer to New Labour than it is the current right wing cabal.
I also think the current Labour executive has a good mix of the metropolitan middle of the road Labour support, the more old fashioned Labour supporters (Angela Raynor and Jess Phillips) and a sound shadow chancellor in Rachel Reeves who knows damn well the next five years will be financially very difficult.

As for perpetually voting for one party - that’s not compulsory any more and you are allowed to change your vote from one election to another; although being in Norfolk it might not make much difference.

Last time around I voted Labour, despite loathing Corbyn for everything he stood for because I could see Johnson was in for a large majority, could see his total unsuitability to lead ( proven right there!) and wanted to rein in his power base.

[slogen51]

I am in an extreme(ly) small minority! I thought bojo did a reasonable job : he became PM on a single issue - Brexit and on the back of that won a very big majority. Nobody knew COVID was just around the corner and perhaps the premiership then proved to be a poisoned chalice but he stood up to be counted but of course made some very poor choices in his close knit advisors. His back bench 'remainers' never forgave him for forcing Brexit through parliament and pounced at the first of many bojo gaffs

Indeed it is well documented that many labour voters voted conservative because of Brexit and the immigration issue and they will now probably revert back to their natural party.

[TommyC]

Definitely Boris Johnson absolutely won on a three word manifesto - Get Brexit Done. ...
Unfortunately every election since Cameron came to power has been all about the Conservative party.
I am astounded that as nation we are not far more annoyed that a political party has ruined our standing on the international stage, trashed ours and neighbouring economies all in the names of progress, profiteering through efficiencies, trashing working conditions and managing our borders. We used to have an National Health Service. It was great.

[XWP29]

Politicians of either party would sell their granny for power. They will use any persuasion technique or be economical with the actuality to win power. It’s how they see it behind closed doors, that’s the game. I can’t remember any government whose manifesto held up after a year or so.

[raptor9]

Have been having ultrasounds every six months for the past ten years, A growing aortic anuerism. Had check last Thursday, it was decided enough was enough. Time for something to be done. Next day got an appointment for a CT scan. Good old N.H.S. If you are real trouble it works very well!!.

[XWP29]

Have been having ultrasounds every six months for the past ten years, A growing aortic anuerism. Had check last Thursday, it was decided enough was enough. Time for something to be done. Next day got an appointment for a CT scan. Good old N.H.S. If you are real trouble it works very well!!.

Sorry to hear that but yes, it can be excellent.

[Condor68]

You are lucky as well as all that has been said we have the SNP with a new revalation coming out daily.

[slogen51]

I see in Scotland Yousaf has gone on the defensive and is predicting a labour victory saying they won't need Scottish seats to get to Westminster. In other words saying to the Scottish voters don't worry you can still vote SNP (independence) and have a labour Government to pay the bills!

The Tories always seem to get in a mess over issues outside our borders - it was the EU and the single currency before then it was the infamous Maastricht treaty that caused splits and more recently Brexit - now all history. But now the Tories are in a mess over illegal immigration which has been blown out of all proportion. First Sue Braverman was elevated from nowhere to home secretary and given the task to sort it out but she was too hard line and vocal - probably actually said what a lot of people want to hear: " the invasion from the south east" and "I would love to have a front page of the Telegraph with a plane taking off to Rwanda, that's my dream, it's my obsession."

Then she laid into the extinction rebellion protestors but that was too hard line apparently and her measures were rejected in parliament

"I am afraid that it is the Labour Party, the Lib Dems, the coalition of chaos, the Guardian-reading, tofu-eating wokerati and, dare I say, the anti-growth coalition that we have to thank for the disruption we are seeing on our roads today."

So Braverman has to go and in the shuffle we get Lord David Cameron back as an unelected foreign secretary!

[raptor9]

Thanks XWP, Probably a stent coming.