Electric Cars. Yes No or whatever!

[Malcolm]

WIRE)--Innolith AG, the world leader in rechargeable Inorganic Battery Technology, today announces that it is developing world’s first 1000 Wh/kg rechargeable battery. Under development in the company’s German laboratory, the new Innolith Energy Battery would be capable of powering an Electric Vehicle (EV) for over 1000km on a single charge. The Innolith Energy Battery would also radically reduce costs due to the avoidance of exotic and expensive materials combined with the very high energy density of the system.

There are already Lithium batteries available in the 700-750Wh/kg class. So if it works, this is a 30% improvement which is useful, but not a game changer.

Petrol is 12888Wh/Kg - 13 times more energy per kg. Extraction of energy from a battery can be 90% efficient, whereas the internal combustion engine in a car is only 25-35% efficient. Adjusting for that and the 1000Wh/kg battery has 900Wh/kg available, and petrol is 3866. So the batteries have to be 4.25 the weight of the petrol to equal the range.

Of course you can do 1000km on a single charge - if you put enough batteries in the car. It'll take a week to recharge though unless you live next to Hinkley Point.

[Richard B]

The battery technolgy is improving all the time. Mass production at a low cost is the bigger issue there but then the same applies to other technologies too. The bigger issue by far for EVs is having enough electricity supply and at a fast rate when it is needed.

In a pure EV world the petrol/diesel stations will become charging stations. However the problem is having enough capacity in the distribution network to supply the demand. That in turn means more generation which has already been mentioned above.Building infrastructure isn't the hard part, having enough power is.

EV is an exciting area for DNOs (Distribution Network Operators) but a very challenging one.

Agree but its got to be done my some means,
Nuclear is the tried and tested way. We built years back when we was rich in coal and coal fired power stations, but back then we still built them and they have out lasted the coal industry,
Could we go back to coal. Is the tech here today to clean up the process,
The country still as masses of coal reserves.

Is they going to be a breakthrough in better solar gathering
Better smaller wind turbines,

Can most live with a 7 hour night time charge and a range of 600miles. If not more in years to come.

At present in a tesla S, a trip from Coventry out to cottesmore, from their up to Cranwell then off to Coningsby, back down to holbeach for a range visit. Back home via Lakenheath then A14 home. Not bad for a aviation fix, was what i did regular years ago, and double today in a EV.
As above if in the next 5 years we can get 600miles plus from a overnight charge
Not forgetting a possible fast charge station stop off top up. More then enough for joe public.

So is this correct home charge at 7.5 kw, does that run along the lines of power for our 8.5 or 9.5 kw electric showers usage. Think our shower is the powerful 10.5 had to go up on the twin and earth for it. ?

[Ghastly Whisper]

Simple fact is one day fossil fuels will run out, but by then we will all be living in a Mad Max utopia! bring on the horse and cart, I fancy a quick trot out.

[Richard B]

Simple fact is one day fossil fuels will run out, but by then we will all be living in a Mad Max utopia! bring on the horse and cart, I fancy a quick trot out.

Nice idea with a horse and trap.
Be no green fields to graze a horse on the way housing is chomping the country side away.
Very green apart from the rear methane outlet.

[Malcolm]

So is this correct home charge at 7.5 kw, does that run along the lines of power for our 8.5 or 9.5 kw electric showers usage. Think our shower is the powerful 10.5 had to go up on the twin and earth for it. ?

The electricity supply to you home will have a fuse in it - somewhere on the distribution panel close to the electricity meter. That fuse is usually 60A (but can be up to 100A). That limits the amount of total power you can use to about 15Kw (up to 25Kw if you've got a 100A fuse). If your shower is already 10.5Kw you will probably blow the fuse if you attempt to use a 7.5Kw charger whilst you're in the shower. 7.5Kw shower and 7.5Kw charger and you'll probably get away with it, as long as no-one switches the kettle, cooker or toaster on at the same time.

Electricity distribution is done by something called 3 phase. There are 3 identical circuits running from the local substation transformer, red, blue and yellow. In a typical street, every third house is connected to the same supply to try and balance the load on each of the three phases. You can pay extra (may be a lot extra!) to have a full 3 phase supply connected to your home. That means your home has red, blue and yellow phases connected, and then you can draw 3 times the power, so somewhere close to 45Kw.

Obviously if every house on your street applies to have 3 phase connected, and they all draw 45Kw at the same time the substation transformer will probably go pop. So electricity distribution network will also need upgrading.

A Tesla 3 has a total battery capacity of 50-75KWh. From a 13A (3Kw) wall socket it'll take between 20 and 25 hours to fully charge a flat battery. In reality it'll probably be longer than that - you have to slow down the charge rate as the battery 'fills'. From a 7.5Kw single phase charger it'll take between 7 and 10 hours. From a 22.5Kw 3 phase charger that time drops to a more useable 2.5 to 3.5 hours.

Many households have more than one car.

[slogen51]

Great post - I always wondered what 3 phase meant.

Sounds like it is back to the drawing board!

[Condor68]

Dundee newspaper today reports new charging points to be installed using solar panels on roof of recently built swimming pool.In same article they say panels wont handle load and new solution needed???????? Supplying the chargers always seems to be last thought in pprocess

[Sparts99]

Tidal power works all day, the tidal ebb happens twice a day but it's at different times across the country, added to that turbines could be run in large non tidal rivers, and there are tidal races around the country that don't ever stop. The Bristol channel model would've worked 24 hours a day.

[Malcolm]

Tidal power works all day, the tidal ebb happens twice a day but it's at different times across the country, added to that turbines could be run in large non tidal rivers, and there are tidal races around the country that don't ever stop. The Bristol channel model would've worked 24 hours a day.

Not so. At any one site tidal power generating capability follows a sinusoidal pattern in sync with the tides at that location. At high and low tide the flow of water through the turbines is at a minimum, so electricity generation potential is also at a minimum. The flow is a maximum half way between high and low, and low and high tides - and that's the point of maximum generation potential.

Sure you can build at different sites to try and fill in the gaps, but all the sites will have 2 periods every day when they generate virtually nothing.

[ArabJazzie]

Tidal power works all day, the tidal ebb happens twice a day but it's at different times across the country, added to that turbines could be run in large non tidal rivers, and there are tidal races around the country that don't ever stop. The Bristol channel model would've worked 24 hours a day.

Not so. At any one site tidal power generating capability follows a sinusoidal pattern in sync with the tides at that location. At high and low tide the flow of water through the turbines is at a minimum, so electricity generation potential is also at a minimum. The flow is a maximum half way between high and low, and low and high tides - and that's the point of maximum generation potential.

Sure you can build at different sites to try and fill in the gaps, but all the sites will have 2 periods every day when they generate virtually nothing.

How long does slack water last at each end of the tide cycle though? Whatever way around the country the cycle runs, there will always be a bigger line of coastal sites generating either in positive or negative, with a relatively insignificant number at rest, with an added variable of spring and neap tides.

However, i do remember being involved in a discussion like this before where a quote was brought in from a Japanese engineer, who said that all of this drive towards renewable energy was pointless if there no way to harness and store it properly!

[Malcolm]

Tidal power works all day, the tidal ebb happens twice a day but it's at different times across the country, added to that turbines could be run in large non tidal rivers, and there are tidal races around the country that don't ever stop. The Bristol channel model would've worked 24 hours a day.

Not so. At any one site tidal power generating capability follows a sinusoidal pattern in sync with the tides at that location. At high and low tide the flow of water through the turbines is at a minimum, so electricity generation potential is also at a minimum. The flow is a maximum half way between high and low, and low and high tides - and that's the point of maximum generation potential.

Sure you can build at different sites to try and fill in the gaps, but all the sites will have 2 periods every day when they generate virtually nothing.

How long does slack water last at each end of the tide cycle though? Whatever way around the country the cycle runs, there will always be a bigger line of coastal sites generating either in positive or negative, with a relatively insignificant number at rest, with an added variable of spring and neap tides.

The tides repeat on about a 12 hour cycle. In it's simplest form, 'slack tide generation' lasts 3 hours (at high tide). Then 'peak generation' 3 hours as the tide goes out, then slack again for 3 hours (low tide) then peak again for 3 hours as the tide comes back in. The cycle is actually a sine wave though - so there is some generating capacity either side of low and high tides. And conversely peak generation actually reaches that peak, it's not at peak for the whole period.

The tides are caused by the moon and affect the whole earth. The UK only covers a small portion of the globe. Therefore high and low tides around the country only vary by an hour or two. Can't quickly find the figures but ISTR about 3 hours from Lands End to John O'Groats, or Lowestoft, or somewhere. The idea that you can generate all your leccie from a few tidal stations in the Bristol channel is just plain wrong. You would need many stations spread strategically around the country so that when one area is slack another is at peak. With only a 2-3 hour variation around the whole country, I'd say that is impossible. Even if it were possible building 25-50 stations around the country is going to be a lot more expensive than half a dozen Hinkley Points, and probably just as environmentally damaging.

[Ghastly Whisper]

Just a thought, I would say 90% of us take our power for granted. There's been an interesting lesson learnt during the bad weather in Texas recently. No electric supply no way to charge the electric cars, no problem you would think, take the traditional fossil fuel vehicle, small problem though all the fuel pumps are electric powered, no fuel for them either....back to the horse and trap!

[Tooks]

There’s a lot of scaremongering going on in this thread!

I’ve been driving hybrid or electric since 2014, I’ve covered over 100,000 electric miles in that time.

Current vehicle is a VW ID.3, and yes I have home charging, but every car in the country parks somewhere overnight even if it’s not on your own drive. The trick will be to get the charging access to where these cars sit all night.

The electricity infrastructure will easily cope with an electric car future, given suitable will and investment, it’s not like oil extraction, refining into road fuels and distribution doesn’t require any electricity, it’s a surprising amount.

At an Ionity ChargePoint I can put 5 miles per minute back into the ID.3, so a 20 minute charge is circa 100 miles. The range of a fully charged battery is around 190 miles even in the winter, and much further in the summer, and once you get your head around it, it’s not a problem.

People always come up with a myriad of reasons why electric cars won’t work for them, but they work for many people when you look at the average daily mileage most people cover.

[slogen51]

It's not the average trip that is the problem though.

Most average trips are probably only 10 miles but once a month the average person, especially in the summer months will probaby want a carload to the beach or abroad maybe one or twice a year otherwise why do ICE cars come with 10+ gallon tanks.

A 30K VW with a top speed of 95 and a range of 190 miles - if it was £10-15k then maybe that would be worth having?

[Nighthawke]

The electricity infrastructure will easily cope with an electric car future, given suitable will and investment...

May I ask what qualifies you to make such a statement? Are you an engineer with a DNO or in generation perhaps?

[Tooks]

It's not the average trip that is the problem though.

Most average trips are probably only 10 miles but once a month the average person, especially in the summer months will probaby want a carload to the beach or abroad maybe one or twice a year otherwise why do ICE cars come with 10+ gallon tanks.

A 30K VW with a top speed of 95 and a range of 190 miles - if it was £10-15k then maybe that would be worth having?

Of course, the cost of longer range EVs is higher than your average hatchback right now, but those who aren’t using an EV right now might not know that the state of the rapid charging infrastructure is improving all the time. When I got my first EV in 2014, it was sketchy, but companies like Instavolt have transformed things for even non Tesla owners.

[Tooks]

The electricity infrastructure will easily cope with an electric car future, given suitable will and investment...

May I ask what qualifies you to make such a statement? Are you an engineer with a DNO or in generation perhaps?

What qualifies you to say it can’t cope, with respect?

Electricity demand in the uk has actually been in decline since 2002, there are technologies such as demand management and vehicle to grid that will both avoid and help with peak demand respectively.

When petrol cars emerged over a hundred years ago, the infrastructure wasn’t in place to service them either, petrol stations emerged to fulfil demand over time. What’s different this time around?

[Nighthawke]

Fair question - nearly 40 years in the electricity supply industry. Although not an engineer, I do know the issues facing my colleagues and the industry as a whole. As I said before, exciting times ahead but some difficult challenges.

The difference is largely a timing one. Governments commit to targets then expect the businesses to meet them.

Hopefully I can reap some of the benefits in my retirement.

[ArabJazzie]

The tides repeat on about a 12 hour cycle. In it's simplest form, 'slack tide generation' lasts 3 hours (at high tide). Then 'peak generation' 3 hours as the tide goes out, then slack again for 3 hours (low tide) then peak again for 3 hours as the tide comes back in. The cycle is actually a sine wave though - so there is some generating capacity either side of low and high tides. And conversely peak generation actually reaches that peak, it's not at peak for the whole period.

The tides are caused by the moon and affect the whole earth. The UK only covers a small portion of the globe. Therefore high and low tides around the country only vary by an hour or two. Can't quickly find the figures but ISTR about 3 hours from Lands End to John O'Groats, or Lowestoft, or somewhere. The idea that you can generate all your leccie from a few tidal stations in the Bristol channel is just plain wrong. You would need many stations spread strategically around the country so that when one area is slack another is at peak. With only a 2-3 hour variation around the whole country, I'd say that is impossible. Even if it were possible building 25-50 stations around the country is going to be a lot more expensive than half a dozen Hinkley Points, and probably just as environmentally damaging.

First thing, I don’t think anyone is pinning their hopes on tidal power solving all our electric generation needs, especially with only one site siting in the Bristol Channel.

Did you really need to tell us the moon is what drives our tidal cycle? High tides advance day to day at around 40 mins on Spring tides, and just over the hour at Neap tides. I do dispute your slack water times, but it may be I am looking at it from my view point of working beside a tidal estuary, and I think you are looking at it when a device is running fast enough to efficiently generate power.

Some of what I base the next bit on may need better technology and more efficient generators, but if slack water only last say, just over an hour at each end at Spring tide, and 2 hours for Neap, there is potential for about 16-20 hours meaningful flow per day, which is variable through any 14 day tide cycle. Again though, I have to dispute your 2-3 hour Tidal Variation around the country as it appears that while Wick is at high tide, Newlyn is at low tide. And to support what I said in my previous post, Wick today hit high tide at 05.56hrs, Dundee 09.41hrs and Sunderland 10.14hrs, so when 1 is sitting at high tide slack water, the other 2 are still generating, although Dundee may be coming on grid when Sunderland is dropping off as the cycle develops.

Like I alluded to at the start, it would be foolish to pin our hopes on harnessing Tidal Power to meet our needs, but as part of the whole drive towards greener Electricity Generation, surely it has a role to play where Offshore Wind Generation is also taking place. I also wonder how much it would cost to add a Wave and Tidal generation system close to an area where OWG is landed and is tapped into the grid through the same land cables.

But all of this is pointless if there is no way of storing any excess power generated to prevent us having to rely on a Nuclear Power Plant to fill the gaps.

[Tooks]

Fair question - nearly 40 years in the electricity supply industry. Although not an engineer, I do know the issues facing my colleagues and the industry as a whole. As I said before, exciting times ahead but some difficult challenges.

The difference is largely a timing one. Governments commit to targets then expect the businesses to meet them.

Hopefully I can reap some of the benefits in my retirement.

I agree it’s a challenge, but one I’m sure we’re up to and is an opportunity as much as anything.

I would also add that the only ‘green’ motoring is no motoring at all, so it’s not the panacea that many think it is, but it’s a start.

Consumption of everything is our biggest problem, and EVs won’t solve that by themselves.