Brexit - EU Poll

[martmpf]

and there's the rub, I think the vast majority of voters are voting emotionally rather than factually. I think it's a huge cop out by the politicians to put this to a referendum as said previously, this kind of stuff is their job. The average man in the street cannot hope to have access to the hard facts to objectively decide what would be the best way to vote. Gove and Cameron are arguing about the legality of the recent negotiations, with each side claiming to know the 'facts'. Obviously they are going to say whatever supports their standpoint, and I think human nature will make us select and quote the information we have to support our point of view.

Or what The Sun say's.

[The Phantom]

Yup, internet and tourism in Cornwall... ive changed my mind, im IN.

I live in Cornwall, so that's what I know most about. It's not just Cornwall that has received grants from the EU.

You keep saying about this money they give to Cornwall - airport, broadband, etc, and that's fair enough. But it's not as though the EU are a charity! Do you think you're getting it from the goodness of their heart? The country is having to pay £55 million per day/ £12 billion per year!! That's a lot of broadband. That's a lot of money towards the NHS!

[EGDR]

Yup, internet and tourism in Cornwall... ive changed my mind, im IN.

I live in Cornwall, so that's what I know most about. It's not just Cornwall that has received grants from the EU.

You keep saying about this money they give to Cornwall - airport, broadband, etc, and that's fair enough. But it's not as though the EU are a charity! Do you think you're getting it from the goodness of their heart? The country is having to pay £55 million per day/ £12 billion per year!! That's a lot of broadband. That's a lot of money towards the NHS!

Those figures are mathematically incorrect. £55 million per day is more than £12 billion per year.

The UK's actual net contribution is around £33 million a day (around, as it can fluctuate), and that does not take into account the non-financial benefits we get in return.

Now, our defence budget is currently fixed at 2% of our overall GDP, making it £56.2 billion in 2014, enough to pay our EU contribution for 4.683 years.

If you took the NHS budget for 2015/2016, you could pay our contributions for nearly 10 years.

The UK's contribution to the EU sounds like a lot of money to you and me, and it is a lot of money, but when you're the fifth richest country in the world (by nominal GDP), it's really not.

As I said earlier, the EU is not perfect, far from it, but we won't help it improve by leaving, nor would we help ourselves by leaving the largest single market in the world.

[Tally-ho]

OUT.

The EU will probably implode of its own accord:-

- the migrant crisis. The German government is trying the 'do-gooder' approach, they will come to regret it. Already there are widespread rejection of Merkel and her open door migrant policy. Why, because of the impact on social services, health, schools, housing - sounds familiar?
- and in a few years time how many of that 1 million plus (increasing daily) will have EU passports, even only 10% means 100,000 travelling to .... amongst others guess where to?
- The EU is struggling economically, Greece is a flop, Italy, Spain and France are scraping the bottom. The former east (Baltic states, Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians, Bulgarians and all of the Balkan are contributing very little if anything.
- only the UK is standing proud in terms of economic growth. So who needs who?
- remember the EU and NATO are two separate institutions, don't be intimidated by security scare stories.
- time for Blighty to take back control of its own destiny!

Momentum is building for the OUT campaign.

[andrewn]

OUT

[Pune]

and there's the rub, I think the vast majority of voters are voting emotionally rather than factually. I think it's a huge cop out by the politicians to put this to a referendum as said previously, this kind of stuff is their job. The average man in the street cannot hope to have access to the hard facts to objectively decide what would be the best way to vote. Gove and Cameron are arguing about the legality of the recent negotiations, with each side claiming to know the 'facts'. Obviously they are going to say whatever supports their standpoint, and I think human nature will make us select and quote the information we have to support our point of view.

I agree, very well put, apparently Boris will have an effect on voters, why!!!, voting on personalities not facts.
Brexit, WTF is that word, and where did it come from, non existent I believe, lets have English please.

[Gary]

There's a petition running about tax dodging pig head pleasurer Cameron spending at least £9 million of public money on pro EU leaflets. It's passed the 100,000 so will have to be debated in the Commons albeit to late has they are meant to be delivered this week https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/116762

[Gary]

So you think a leaflet with the title "Why the Government believes that voting to remain in the European Union is the best decision for the UK." Is going to be fair and balanced? Have the government given the out campaign 9 million of tax payers money to produce and leave one?

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... the-uk.pdf

As for tax, it wouldn't be so bad if they hadn't tried to cut benefits for people who need it. Then the next thing he's embroiled in this. Also don't you see the irony of him saying they are going crackdown on tax avoidance

Tory election manifesto 2015: "Tackling tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance and tax planning is an important part of our long-term economic plan."

[opsjockey]

I recieved my propaganda mailshot from #10 today detailing why we should remain... I havn't read it, nor do I intend on doing so. I did consider using it as toilet paper but it has a glossy finish and already has enough crap inside without me adding more. Anyway, it's being returned to sender, along with (I hope) over a million others after David 'Robert Mugabe' Cameron's total abuse of public money.

[sft]

Some of the maths in earlier posts is atrocious and typical of the remainers.
33m per day net contibutions is 12bn per year.
That's 12bn to keep in this country and 12bn pounds MORE than what the EU give us (those in Cornwall please note). That's 20% of our annual defence budget.

Now one very serious question that is never asked. Why do the 2 richest and most prosperous countries in Europe, namely Norway and Switzerland, choose not to join the EU?

[andygolfer]

Good Job Kyle isnt old enough to vote. Astonishing.

Sorry but I totally disagree. Looking at his posts he has (unlike much of the British public of voting age or otherwise) taken an interest, researched and come to an informed opinion as to what HE considers the best option.

Whether or not you agree with his opinion is another matter, it may even help you decide that you disagree with his reasoning and as such fall in the opposite camp more than you previously realised and for making you consider the options in more depth that can only be good and how refreshing it is to see a younger person taking an interest in politics and the future of this country - well done Kyle, we need more of you Too many people, young and old will turn up to vote without having looked at the facts and gaining information and as a result may not actually vote for what would actually be the best option for them just following other 'sheep' who bow to their normal preferred political party's line. This referendum is unlike previous others (in England anyway) and that needs to be understood.

I've actually enjoyed reading this topic because it's great to hear ordinary people's opinions rather than that of politicians with their own agenda, that is what we all need - unbiased thoughts and opinions even if we disagree with some of them at least it helps us make up our mind which way to vote so we can say we did think about it and voted with conscience. It's one of the few places I've seen this happen so well done for starting it.

As for me I genuinely haven't made up my mind as there are so many factors and some I still don't understand properly. I started off probably 55% 'IN' since then I've heard many quite sound arguments from friends on both sides, just ordinary but what I consider quite intelligent people and I swung to about 55% OUT. Since then I've wavered back and forth probably back to evens but if I had to vote tomorrow I have probably heard a fraction more to make me vote out but probably only around 52% a bit less that 3 weeks ago, I really am that close to one or the other and I do want to hear from more 'ordinary' people in the country, particularly those who work in key areas - that's what this referendum is lacking

A final question - does this poll allow you to change your vote (as I do the SPOTM comp on CA I know you can set it ether to allow a change to your vote or not), it would be interesting to see if people changed their minds as times move on and new arguments come to the fore.

thanks to Gary for starting off a very worthwhile topic

Andy (who hasn't voted in the poll YET)

[mirage41]

We really do need more of our 14,000 plus members (including duplicates/triplycates and deceased, and those too young to vote) to express their opinion on this survey.

Whilst the view of 109 of us is interesting, it may not count on the day.

[sft]

You will have noticed that most of our leaders, businessmen, companies eg Airbus recently, (basically those at the very top of the chain), usually say "stay in the EU".
Your jobs may be at risk if we leave.... but wait our jobs are at risk if we stay.... read on
Well the elite do have a beneficial reason or two for advising stay, that's beneficial for them, not the workers or unemployed.
Firstly, the continuation of mass migration from the EU, which provides a bigger pool of labour - more choice for the employers and this also keeps wages low, which suits them.
Secondly, this also allows them to employ an experienced worker (eg Polish plumber) from outside the UK, which saves them a fortune in training costs, but does nothing for the skills of the UK labour force. The ONS said that in 2015 an incredible 48% of new jobs went to non UK citizens.
My wife has given up with hunting for jobs (low paid) in town, because its increasingly difficult because of migrants and has become one of the underemployed working at home.
She does not want any more migration at all - and she's a migrant herself!

[Gary]

David Cameron vowed to fight “passionately” to stay in the EU. Yet if he hadn't got the watered down renegotiation, he would now be campaigning to leave. When speaking to people that's one of the reasons people don't believe or trust what he says about staying in. Also the doom and gloom message or campaign by the in lot seems to be having the opposite effect and making people more in favour of getting out. Sadly I think it will still have the desired effect on the majority of the undecided voters will be scared into voting to stay in

Posted my EU propaganda back to the Tories the other day with some takeaway menus included

[hertsman]

... the doom and gloom message or campaign by the in lot seems to be having the opposite effect and making people more in favour of getting out. Sadly I think it will still have the desired effect on the majority of the undecided voters will be scared into voting to stay in...

Official campaigning starts today, which seems a bit odd as the war of words seems to have been going full tilt for ages. I have to say that I think the quality of debate from both sides has generally been of a low level so far. I hope, without much expectation, that more informed and serious discussion will take place over the coming weeks as this is without doubt a very serious issue for the UK's future. I suspect that many will already be bored rigid and so will step back from voting. Whichever side you favour, I urge you to use your vote as this really is too important to ignore. If you are still undecided after hearing both sides, I suggest you go with your gut. After all the claims and counter-claims from each faction, some of which will be difficult for many voters to accurately assess, which version of our future feels the best option for your country?

I won't repeat my own arguments on the subject - anyone who has stayed awake long enough to read some of them will be in no doubt in which box I will place my X.

Democracy is hard won but easily lost.

hertsman

[TankBuster]

I will certainly be voting to leave the EU!
Its about time we took back control of our country, made our own decisions, and put the 'Great' back in Great Britain!!!

The European Commission makes the rules we abide by, yet not one member of the commission was voted in by the people .

Bu@@er off Brussels!!!

TankBuster

[EGDR]

Leglisation put forward by the Commission (which consists of ministers nominated by the head of state/government from their respective nations, not unlike the cabinet) does not become law until it is passed by the European Parliament, the members of which ARE elected by the people.

[steve149c]

The EU was conceived as a great idea, with a few countries that were all in the same stage of development. What it has become is a beaucratic burdening machine that has completely lost control, generating stupid rules (eg how powerful a vacuum cleaner can be). Allowing countries to join when they don't meet the criteria, it's lost the plot.

I work in a international industry and transport millions of tonnes of goods a year. Trade would be completely unaffected by leaving, and most of our trade is outside EU, eg China, Japan, US, South America and funnily enough the gulf states.

Immigration, I have no problem with it - assuming it is fair. It should all be done on a point system, is you can come in if you bring worth to the country.

Security, when we leave it is not going to stop Europe sharing information. The security agencies would be stupid if they did.

So it's time to leave

Steve

[mhm]

I will certainly be voting to leave the EU!
Its about time we took back control of our country, made our own decisions, and put the 'Great' back in Great Britain!!!

The European Commission makes the rules we abide by, yet not one member of the commission was voted in by the people .

Bu@@er off Brussels!!!

TankBuster

I totally agree. Leave the EU
I voted for a common market back in the 70's and that's the way it should be now. not common laws for every country that is in it.
The biggest part to take place now is the vote in June. It should be down to the British people to decide not politicians. But a big thank you to David Cameron for allowing this vote.

[deerhunter]

Here's my two pence worth? We originally joined a common market, it was to do with trade. At the time we didn't realise there was a hidden agenda, the formation of a superstate. Now we know, being ruled by unelected grandees, making laws against our national interest.

Simple question..... do you want to be in charge of your own borders, your own laws , if the answer is yes then the answer is obvious. If you want to hand over control then again the answer is obvious.

Those who want to stay are using scare tactics, they say we don't know what will happen if we leave, I still haven't heard one good reason to stay..Do people honestly think trade will suddenly stop, I don't think so.

Also if you look the superstate is crumbling, in a few years I am convinced it will not exist. Even one of the leaders has said they have meddled too much in the internal affairs of different countries and this will be it's downfall

Also Obama thinks we should stay, for me that's a good reason to come out

I've made up my mind. Keep happy people....remember we are British first and last