Brexit - EU Poll

[EGDR]

If it wasn't for measures introduced in the Common Fisheries Policy to lessen overfishing then they may not have had any fish left to catch anyway. The CFP is far from perfect, but it's not a reason to leave.

[Tally-ho]

Edition of DER SPIEGEL (The Mirror) one of Germany's largest news magazines by volume, devoting their front cover asking us to remain.

The article inside:-

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/c ... 96929.html

It's rare to see historic moments coming, because it's impossible to know how history will change and what course it will run. But sometimes you do see it. Sometimes you know something is about to happen that has the potential to change our world.

If Britain is clever, it will remain a member of the EU, because it will recognise that the future of the west is at stake.

This vote is about preserving Europe's competitiveness in times of change and struggle between world powers. It's about nothing less than the future of the peace project started in 1946 by erstwhile enemy nations on a devastated continent, ("Let Europe arise!" as Churchill put it). It is a project that has unified western Europe for seven decades.

The words are becoming increasingly heated. EU opponents are comparing Brussels to Hitler and producing dangerously false statistics, while the dominant tone among EU supporters is pathos. For once, the latter is justified, because fundamental principles are at stake.

Britain is a bridge between Europe and the US. If Britain leaves the EU on this side of the Atlantic while Donald Trump becomes president on the other, then seemingly permanent alliances will wobble, and a weakened Europe would end up alone, helpless amid myriad global crises.

If the right-wing populists grow stronger, because Europe suddenly weakens and shrinks just as they are on the rise, what will remain of the ideal of tolerant and progressive cooperation that defines the west?

So if Britain is clever, it will realise that it is not a world power on its own, that it will lose much with a yes to Brexit on June 23, and gain nothing but a brief moment of pride.

If it votes to leave because a disproportionately high number of older and less well-educated British want it so passionately, Germany and the rest of Europe will have to accept that today's EU is dysfunctional and unattractive. The EU should then mourn the loss of departed Britain and learn from it, and it should cease giving humiliating gifts to those who have left and develop some resolution.

Or else, hopefully, it will be the other way round: Should the British vote against Brexit, perhaps by 55% or 60% rather than 50.1%, then that would be a mandate. Then the British should stop doing the things that have irritated the rest of Europe for years: special requests, self-pity and wretched haggling over every last detail.

The day after the vote, the British should understand that they themselves helped create this detested Europe that they were so close to leaving, and start building a better one.

The underlined bit in my opinion takes the biscuit. We heard similar insults and jibes in 1914 and in 1939, they couldn't conquer by military means then and it appears they have failed by economic means now - hence the throwing of the toys out the cot. Hopefully the "older and less well educated" will once again rise to the challenge as we have so many times in the history of these islands.

Goodbye and Farewell to the EU.

[EGDR]

People are still painting this as a Britain vs Germany battle?

Time has moved on, Germany is a close ally of the UK, a stable democracy and a world leading economy. They are our friends, and our neighbors. Not our enemies.

[beefsteak]

Your problem Kyle is that you don't remember the country any different, as you've admitted to not being old enough to vote I'm going to hazard a guess that your parents are probably not old enough to remember the war let alone to have fought for us. Some of us who saw the country rebuilding itself, slowly but surely suddenly saw it all taken away from us

And to Malcolm

"The idea that a company is British is simply wrong."
Sorry, I have to disagree with you there. If I had the means , motive and opportunity to form a company, it would be British, end of!


There are thousands of people on the 'scrapheap' after our "British" companies were taken (Bribed) from us, sold at ridiculously low prices to the lowest bidders , asset stripped and then closed.

[EGDR]

Of course I don't personally remember either war, and nor do my parents, but I don't see that as relevant. We are not voting in 1946, we are voting in 2016.

Sorry, I have to disagree with you there. If I had the means , motive and opportunity to form a company, it would be British, end of!

Yes, and there are thousands of small businesses who are British and do no significant trade beyond the UK's borders. But when you bring large companies, that most people have heard of, into the equation, they are all effectively international companies.

[beefsteak]

Jesus wept....... That's precisely what I mean.
You haven't had to 'want' anything. Please note as you're a kid I'm having to choose my words carefully. We rebuilt this country after war only to watch the EU gradually erode it all.

[EGDR]

My point is that when we talk of specific businesses in this debate they are almost always large multinational companies, which means it's not as simple as saying a certain company is British, or French, or American. Sony Interactive Entertainment (Playstation), for example, is a division of Sony, a Japanese company, and was founded in Japan. Its current headquarters though, is in California, and the CEO is a British man.

I, personally, don't care where a company is originally from, if they employ people in the UK and contribute to the UK economy then I have no problem.

No need to dumb anything down because of my age, by the way

[steve149c]

Some very interesting debate here.

For those of you who are unsure, or even know how you are going to vote I suggest you read this

http://uk.businessinsider.com/eu-refere ... dea-2016-6

A good account as why the EU as a whole doesn't work and why Britain is a square peg in a round hole!

Steve

[Sparts99]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... g-aberdeen

for more interesting reading.

[quid21]

Better the devil you know if you ask me. Absolutely no way to guarantee what happens post exit.

As one, Europe is powerful, if a little controlling.

I think there is some illusion that if we leave Europe we will have control over everything, but that in itself would take decades to unravel.

[Sparts99]

Some very interesting debate here.

For those of you who are unsure, or even know how you are going to vote I suggest you read this

http://uk.businessinsider.com/eu-refere ... dea-2016-6

A good account as why the EU as a whole doesn't work and why Britain is a square peg in a round hole!

Steve

I've had a read through and without going over it line by line he has missed a lot of counter arguments that are in the public domain. For instance UK steel not selling within the EU because cheaper imports were allowed, and the UK governemnt not being able to do anything about it, but at the time there was an outcry in the press as the UK government voted against the Chinese steel having an increased import tariff. The reason I picked on this particular one is that it highlights a big weakness in the sovereignty argument. We do have power, but it's not exercised thoughtfully or often enough.

His closing comments

" Now, I am still not fully up for Britain leaving the European Union - there are still a huge number of advantages of staying in. But the argument for leaving is not looking as scary as I first thought.

We are a nation that depends on imports for energy and goods, and in being part of the EU we have a decent mechanism for trade. Severing links could easily make it more expensive to import or ship goods.

But while a Brexit would be unknown territory, it would not necessarily be all bad in the long run. "

suggests to me that the writer can't say for certain leaving would be positive. What he's done is highlight problems. In the future with a UK government that has the backbone we could influence a lot of policy positively for the UK and the wider international community. If we leave and as has been said many times, we'll still be subject to the EU rules if we want to trade significantly with the EU, but have no say in their formulation.

[hertsman]

Nearly at the final fence and Gary's poll seems to be breaking very roughly 70/30 for leave on a relatively small sample. I guess the demographic of FC members who have expressed a preference is not representative of the electorate in general if (big 'if') the professional pollsters are to be believed. They tend be evenly split but with a 10% or so still undecided, that may well not reflect the actual result.

A few personal thoughts on the whole debate-

The standard of debate from both sides has been woeful. It has degenerated into a personal political slanging match totally unbecoming for an issue of such importance.

Really, really disappointed at the number of senior politicians led by Cameron & Osborne who have trumpeted the insignificance of the UK in support of their cause. I cannot remember the last time serving members of any UK government of any political colour has been so keen to publicly talk the country down. Shameful.

Poor Jeremy - he is stuck with a Labour party that wants to remain when his heart tells him he wants to leave. Labour in as much of a bind as the Tories now are, but for different reasons.

Leave has highlighted immigration - a legitimate topic for debate - but has never managed to disentangle it from perceptions of racism.

Both sides have claimed they can predict the economic future of the UK depending on the outcome. Pure, unadulterated bunkum. The history of predicting the economy shows only that it is unpredictable. Whatever the result, it will go up, down and sideways as it always has done, often not when the experts told us it would.

Both sides have thrown out highly questionable statistics and 'facts'

Both have shown that very, very few politicians have the remotest idea how successful trade is conducted and what factors influence the buying and selling of goods, nationally or internationally. The vast majority of trade takes place despite government (UK or EU) intervention, not because of it. Governments vastly overestimate their importance in this respect, yet hours of debate have been expended on just this topic. Political hubris.

Big businesses broadly support remain. They would as they all work on a 1 to 3 year horizon at most. The uncertainty of Brexit would throw that out of kilter in the short-term, and the short term is all they are really interested in. Hitting this year's corporate plan (and hence this years bonus targets) is of huge immediate importance to them; 2 - 3 years out they will adapt but would rather not have the inconvenience. Given the long-term nature of our decision, the short-term nature of this stance is worrying.

Each new day has brought another 'warning'. Why not tell us the positives rather than cry wolf over and over again?

A disturbing number of international politicians and organisations have rushed to tell us what we should do 'or else'. What has happened to the long-standing convention of not interfering with the democratic process in another sovereign state? It's our business so butt out. Many of the institutions have shown themselves to be totally devoid of credibility, presiding as they have over the worst economic crisis since the 1930's.

Amidst all the hollering about trade and the economy on one side, and immigration on the other, the question of the future surrendering of sovereignty to law-makers I cannot either vote for or against, however they perform, is more important to me. It is no secret I started out wanting to leave and that's where I will finish.

My best guess at the result is be a 3 -5% margin for remain. I think many undecideds will opt for the status quo once they are poised over their ballot paper. The bookies seem to think so too and they were better predictors of the last general election than the pollsters.

But the EU hierarchy should have been shaken out of its complacency by the fact that the UK has seriously considered leaving. Germany has suddenly got the jitters that they would have to pick up the tab for the gap in contributions to the EU budget if the UK were to exit. The EU should not carry on with business as usual and really must embrace reform to help get the whole continent back firing on all economic cylinders. There are still huge problems in southern Europe especially and with the Euro currency in particular that cannot be continuously fudged. I live in hope.

The democratic will of the people should prevail.

hertsman

[Rugbyref]

One of many Remain lies begins to unravel already!

https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/31896 ... ces/#page1

Question for you all - will we celebrate Independence day on the 23rd or 24th June each year? (the day of the vote or the day of the result).

[EGDR]

Turkey first applied to join in 1987, they've been through a lot of talks. Yet, they still only meet 1 out of the 35 criteria, and that's before coming to the stage of whether existing EU nations wish to veto their membership, so they're still a long, long way away from joining.

[ChrisCwmbran]

Turkey first applied to join in 1987, they've been through a lot of talks. Yet, they still only meet 1 out of the 35 criteria, and that's before coming to the stage of whether existing EU nations wish to veto their membership, so they're still a long, long way away from joining.

Until the EU starts to compromise big time on the requirement to get Turkey to continue stemming the flow of economic migrants.

[EGDR]

Which it can't do without unanimous agreement from all current member states.

[C24]

This is an attempt by me to lighten the mood on a very important issue.

Two of the things for me to do tomorrow:

I need to cast a vote & I have an appointment at the local surgery to have my head examined. A coincidence or what?

[Rugbyref]

The Remainians like to call it a 'leap in the dark'. I like to think of it as a leap off the Titanic into the lifeboats.

They also quote the EU as a market of 500 Million to buy British goods; well the Greeks are broke and can't buy anything from anyone, the Rumanians and Bulgarians are also poor as church mice, so let's be charitable and say there are 450 Million potential customers. Now if we leave, we can have our trade agreement with India that the EU frustrates, so 1,000 Million in that market trumps the EU by more than 2:1.

QED

[Blue Diamond]

The Remainians like to call it a 'leap in the dark'. I like to think of it as a leap off the Titanic into the lifeboats.

They also quote the EU as a market of 500 Million to buy British goods; well the Greeks are broke and can't buy anything from anyone, the Rumanians and Bulgarians are also poor as church mice, so let's be charitable and say there are 450 Million potential customers. Now if we leave, we can have our trade agreement with India that the EU frustrates, so 1,000 Million in that market trumps the EU by more than 2:1.

QED

Ah yes, India. The country that is so keen to buy British that it went for the French Rafael fighter as opposed to the British built Typhoon.

[lhrlima]

I'll pick apart the two that I already know about.

British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.

100 to be built in Spain. 489 to be built in Wales.

UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

Heathrow Airport (which I assume this extremely vague statement refers to) is owned by a British company with a Spanish parent company.

Sorry to enter the debate so late in the day, but just for the record: Heathrow Airport Holdings, owned by Ferrovial (Spain) 25%, Qatar Holdings 20%, Caisse de depot et placement du Quebec 12.62%, Government of Singapore Investment Corp 11.20%, Alinda Capital Partner 11.18%, China Investment Corp 10%, Universities Superannuation Scheme 10%

Aberdeen, Glasgow and Southampton Airports owned by ACS Airports, Ferrovial (Spain) Macquarie (Australia)

Gatwick, London City and Edinburgh Airports, Global Infrastructure Partners (USA)

Good old Stansted flies the UK flag, as it's owned by Manchester Airports Group, a Company owned by the 10 Boroughs of Greater Manchester!

Hope this helps!

Regards,
Steve.