The Ukraine Situation

[iainpeden]

So you don’t believe that children have been murdered, woman raped and civilians executed by Russian forces?

Do you also believe that the lizards are taking over, that chips were delivered in the covid vaccination and that the moon is made of green cheese?

Your posts are apologies for a truly nazi regime.

[ST1976]

. . . . The next level is to see beyond the distraction of this situation in Ukraine . . . .

A distraction!

Why don't you take yourself off somewhere quiet and "distract" yourself in a similar manner to that which the Ukrainian peole are being subjected too!

Steve T

[XWP29]

“What proof do you have that this is country on country warfare, and Russia are actually looking to conquer Ukraine territorially by the way”?


The body bags of raped and tortured civilians in hastily dug graves, recorded internationally as war crimes.

Therefore there must be warfare.

[Bobcode]

Craig, I am twice your age and have seen a lot in my time. I am not swayed by political rhetoric or biased news reports, You ask am I not interested in why they would risk it ? you cannot rationalise Russian mentality, the very nature of Russia is based on fear, repression and control of its own people, it cares nothing for human life, only territorial gain and the acquisition of raw materials, both of which Ukraine has. It matters not weather Ukraine is “a flowering democracy” as you put it, the undeniable truth is that Russia has attacked a peaceful country, brought death and destruction to its people and if not stopped, will seek to further its territorial gains. Be under no illusion, Russia is a despotic regime, history will show you the millions of Russians killed by their own government in the collectivisation program, their total disregard for human life makes them all the more dangerous, what do they care for the citizens of another country when they will imprison, kill and purge their own mercilessly. There is a very real risk of “the special operation” becoming a declared war, a situation we ignore at our peril

[Col Nago]

The guy Craig suggested you read is a prime example of a conspiracy tin foil hat wearing loon. He’s also a hardline anti semite.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Guy_Carr

[paddyboy]

Well said, Nick

Well said, ‘Bobcode’

Well said ‘Col Nago’

[steamy]

so, Ukraine just gift themselves to Russia?

Ukraine has already gifted itself to globalist ambitions, and our mistakes that led to this point can't be changed. All we can do is try and minimise the human suffering, sending weapons in and making sure we fight to the last Ukrainian is not helpful, as they will still lose.

People here like to say, how we can't let a bully like Putin get away with it, but do you really think now they have started it Russia can afford to lose either? Encouraging Zelensky, the billionaire comedian who actually acted in a sitcom as the president of Ukraine, before becoming the president of Ukraine (?!) to change his script and negotiate a ceasefire would be the best outcome for Ukraine in my opinion.

What proof do you have that this is country on country warfare, and Russia are actually looking to conquer Ukraine territorially by the way?

So, yes?

[Pune]

Blimey, what next?? just proves that they are not all locked up

[Bobcode]

Blimey, what next?? just proves that they are not all locked up

[anthony martin]

Well said Pune

[Pune]

Well said Pune

Cheers, I just can't believe what some folk think is going on in Ukraine, it beggars belief

[Red-Eye-Knight]

So you don’t believe that children have been murdered, woman raped and civilians executed by Russian forces?

Do you also believe that the lizards are taking over, that chips were delivered in the covid vaccination and that the moon is made of green cheese?

Your posts are apologies for a truly nazi regime.

I hope the chips had salt and vinegar on them

I take it you mean microchips

[Col Nago]

To counter Craig’s claim (that he got from a Russian propaganda meme that’s being pushed on social media) that Zelensky is a billionaire, here are the facts about the Ukrainian leader’s personal wealth, and where it came from:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattdurot/ ... 6cc57f5bb0

[Blackcat1]

Green cheese!!?? It’s Swiss cheese!! Everyone knows that!

[NorvilleRogers]

So you don’t believe that children have been murdered, woman raped and civilians executed by Russian forces?

Do you also believe that the lizards are taking over, that chips were delivered in the covid vaccination and that the moon is made of green cheese?

Your posts are apologies for a truly nazi regime.

I hope the chips had salt and vinegar on them

I take it you mean microchips

"chips" is the usual term used for microchips in tech industry.

The news refers to them as chips.. even a recent BBC story refers to them as chips.

Computer chips started becoming scarce early in the pandemic, when chip buyers, in particular automakers, slashed their orders fearing a global recession. In response, semiconductor plants reduced their production. An increase in demand.


Different from "Walkers" or "McCains" or US police on motorbikes.

It would be odd to be injected with an oven chip.. but Craig probably believes that happens all the time.

[steamy]

To counter Craig’s claim (that he got from a Russian propaganda meme that’s being pushed on social media) that Zelensky is a billionaire, here are the facts about the Ukrainian leader’s personal wealth, and where it came from:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattdurot/ ... 6cc57f5bb0

It's always good to see when other people who preach to "do your research", don't even do their own.
Then by doing so, show their support hypocritical support for the antagonists who are actually doing what they are complaining about...

I didn't get the dig about Zelensky's past career either from the same poster, he's proved his leadership skills copious amounts of times over many other world leaders, who would probably be more fitting as stand up comedians.

[Craig]

So you don’t believe that children have been murdered, woman raped and civilians executed by Russian forces?

Do you also believe that the lizards are taking over, that chips were delivered in the covid vaccination and that the moon is made of green cheese?

Your posts are apologies for a truly nazi regime.

Ian, it may have happened, and if it did I don't need to add that it would be totally wrong. But where is the proof?

The situation with Bucha for example, where the mainstream news alleged that the pictures of some of the bodies they were showing were killed by Russians weeks prior according to eyewitness reports, but the bodies were not bloated at all?

The Russians leave on 30th March, the mayor of the town, Anatoliy Fedoruk, was tweeting away and reporting to news outlets for a couple of days the positive news, with no mention of the atrocities for 2 days. Then the Ukrainian forces move in, and days later the stories are coming out, on April Fools day coincidentally.

The white helmets did this sort of propaganda work for years in Syria incidentally, and the same mercenaries that we moved around the Middle East during the so called Arab Spring are now fighting in Ukraine.

I don't know what is happening on the ground, but like I've said before situations like Bucha don't add up and don't make sense.

As for the rest of your post, what are you on about? You need to stop making claims that I have said things which I have not. I'd happily discuss all of those things by the way, but not really relevant to this FC topic on Ukraine.

“What proof do you have that this is country on country warfare, and Russia are actually looking to conquer Ukraine territorially by the way”?


The body bags of raped and tortured civilians in hastily dug graves, recorded internationally as war crimes.

Therefore there must be warfare.

Nick, you didn't really answer my specific question, and time will tell what happens to Ukraine. I don't often make statements, but my inkling is the Russians will gain territory in the South and East. But, Europe will gain territory in the Centre and West. There will also be massive rebuilding contracts available, so at least someone will benefit hey.

You also have to ask how different would it be to Yugoslavia, where we bombed it into separate pieces and now recognise Kosovo for example as an independent state. If the Donetsk and Luhansk regions do become independent after Russain 'liberation' should we recognise them?

Talking of mass graves, here is a video from an independent journalist who went there. It was fake news, just a regular cemetery. Also don't forget there has been a civil war going on for years, so of those deaths not all of the conflict ones will be caused by Russians.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeEnCcn1S3I

Looking at torture of citizens, you do know the Ukrainian forces have been carrying this out for years don't you?

https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/fil ... ure_EN.pdf

I won't quote the details here as they are horrific, but everyone should go and read the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe report along with UN High Commissioner for Human Rights reports linked above.

They clearly document, identify perpetrators and condemn the actions of Ukrainian armed forces and government actors for doing all of the things you mention above, to Ukrainian civilians.

I repeat from pages ago, there has been an ethnic cleansing, anti Russian culture civil war going on for 8 years, with documented crimes being carried out by the Ukrainian government and security forces against their own (disowned) people.

Members on here really need to stop saying that a peaceful country was invaded, when it is a demonstrable fact that Ukraine was not a peaceful country prior to the Russian operation.

. . . . The next level is to see beyond the distraction of this situation in Ukraine . . . .

A distraction!

Why don't you take yourself off somewhere quiet and "distract" yourself in a similar manner to that which the Ukrainian peole are being subjected too!

Steve T

Great virtue signalling Steve.

The reality is many others are calling for this situation in Ukraine to be escalated and prolonged, thus increasing the suffering. I am calling for the opposite but keep trying to make it look like I don't care about the people on the ground.

Craig, I am twice your age and have seen a lot in my time. I am not swayed by political rhetoric or biased news reports, You ask am I not interested in why they would risk it ? you cannot rationalise Russian mentality, the very nature of Russia is based on fear, repression and control of its own people, it cares nothing for human life, only territorial gain and the acquisition of raw materials, both of which Ukraine has. It matters not weather Ukraine is “a flowering democracy” as you put it, the undeniable truth is that Russia has attacked a peaceful country, brought death and destruction to its people and if not stopped, will seek to further its territorial gains. Be under no illusion, Russia is a despotic regime, history will show you the millions of Russians killed by their own government in the collectivisation program, their total disregard for human life makes them all the more dangerous, what do they care for the citizens of another country when they will imprison, kill and purge their own mercilessly. There is a very real risk of “the special operation” becoming a declared war, a situation we ignore at our peril

Bob, I can understand where you are coming from and what you are saying.

But the line, "the very nature of Russia is based on fear, repression and control of its own people" could so equally be applied to the UK. The difference is maybe here it is done less overtly.

I think we also need to look at the hypocrisy of the situation. Have you forgotten the imperialist wars we have fought in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria? If you were being truly impartial how is the death of potentially a million Iraqis since 2003 over WMD that did not exist also not a despotic act?

To counter Craig’s claim (that he got from a Russian propaganda meme that’s being pushed on social media) that Zelensky is a billionaire, here are the facts about the Ukrainian leader’s personal wealth, and where it came from:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattdurot/ ... 6cc57f5bb0

It's always good to see when other people who preach to "do your research", don't even do their own.
Then by doing so, show their support hypocritical support for the antagonists who are actually doing what they are complaining about...

I didn't get the dig about Zelensky's past career either from the same poster, he's proved his leadership skills copious amounts of times over many other world leaders, who would probably be more fitting as stand up comedians.

The OCCRP report shows most of his holdings are in off shore tax evasion accounts so we can't really know, but I'll withdraw the billionaire comment as factual, although I bet it is likely!

Even the article (key word there) that Col Nago links, suggest he has upto $30,000,000. So even that figure seem mental to me, the average salary in Ukraine was around $10,000 per annum and as a rather poor comedian he racked up minimum $20,000,000 based on reporting from Forbes Ukraine (more key words there).

Having his presidential campaign backed by Ihor Kolomoisky oligarch* who certainly is a billionaire might explain some of his success.

*The good Ukrainian criminal kind of course.

Oh, and he is a member of the WEF of course;

https://www.weforum.org/people/volodymyr-zelenskyy

Actor, 100%.

As for everyone else, take the mickey out of me all you like, it's a shame because there is every chance we would have, or even have had a good laugh at an airbase taking pictures together. But the internet is great to look big and ostracise people who may have a different world view to you...?

[iainpeden]

Craig - my first response was unprintable and would have got me a lifetime ban!

The evidence of atrocities carried out by Russian troops is all too apparent on reputable news media feeds; I'd also add that global organisations are now gathering evidence that war crimes have been committed. Russia is not a liberal democracy, never has been and probably never will be; the respect for life that we are lucky enough to have in the west is not part of the thinking of the Russian elite. If you look back at the pogroms carried out by Russian Czars and the repeated terrors carried out in Stalin's name by his cadre you will understand that. In a recent documentary (CH4 or Ch 5?) about the Soviet army's route to Berlin in 1945 the claim, substantiated by multiple victims, was made that every German woman over the age of 12 in the Soviet sphere was raped - it was an acceptable part of warfare to them. While I am sure that other allied troops carried out these atrocities the difference is that the Soviet action was endemic. That has carried over into this conflict.

As for the Ukraine, I suggest you read Jonathan Dimbleby's book "Barbarossa" to have some understanding of the total war and bestiality carried out by both sides and there were certainly Ukrainian units supporting the German forces against their long time Russian enemy. However, Ukraine was a very young and developing democracy which had escaped the yoke of Soviet rule, not perfect but is ours yet(?),and its people deserve the chance to gain from that peaceful life; Putin and his generals have badly damaged that dream for about 40 million people.

I'll finish with something I suspect you haven't considered. The political spectrum is not linear it is circular and there is no difference between ultra left and ultra right regimes - both are Nazi. As a matter of interest would you prefer to live in Moscow under Putin or in a western democracy?

[Bobcode]

Well said iainpeden

Craig, we come from very different generations, yours is the woke handwringing leftists and, as such, they are consumed by their own perceived god given right to espouse dogma and rhetoric.
You question that Ukraine is a peaceful nation, did they attack Russia? no, did they ask for armed intervention into their country ? no. No amount of quoting old books and trying to fit the past to the present will change the basic undeniable fact that unprovoked, Russia launched a war against Ukraine and it’s people bringing death and destruction. In my opinion, the views stated by yourself hint at appeasement, non involvement at any price, anything to avoid disruption to a comfortable life……the Ukrainians have no such choice, murdered by an unwarranted invasion.
Personally, I have pleasant life, children, grandchildren a home and wife but be under no illusion, if the tipping point is reached then I, with many others, would stand against such tyranny, aware of the possible ramifications, Russia’s actions cannot be condoned or tolerated.
You have a penchant for tritely quoting historical events…..history serves nothing save lessons learned for the future, a point worth considering

[Bobcode]

Well said iainpeden

Craig, we come from very different generations, yours is the woke handwringing leftists and, as such, they are consumed by their own perceived god given right to espouse dogma and rhetoric.
You question that Ukraine is a peaceful nation, did they attack Russia? no, did they ask for armed intervention into their country ? no. No amount of quoting old books and trying to fit the past to the present will change the basic undeniable fact that unprovoked, Russia launched a war against Ukraine and it’s people bringing death and destruction. In my opinion, the views stated by yourself hint at appeasement, non involvement at any price, anything to avoid disruption to a comfortable life……the Ukrainians have no such choice, murdered by an unwarranted invasion.
Personally, I have pleasant life, children, grandchildren a home and wife but be under no illusion, if the tipping point is reached then I, with many others, would stand against such tyranny, aware of the possible ramifications, Russia’s actions cannot be condoned or tolerated.
You have a penchant for tritely quoting historical events…..history serves nothing save lessons learned for the future, a point worth considering