The Ukraine Situation

[cat1]

It's all very well supplying more aircraft but they won't fly themselves. Does the Ukraine have enough combat capable pilots to fly them? Or will the west supply the crews as well?

if we supply the crews, aren't we affectively joining Ukraine which would lead to a much larger war???

[Vulcanone]

HighFlyer21. Mind if I ask how old you are?

Did you suss out Putin's intentions after meeting with the UN secretary general yesterday? He clearly ha no intention of resting till he has finally finished the mad hair brained special military operation.

I await your response, perhaps you can sit on the peace talks. Or explain that to all the displaced Ukrainian population.

Like Afghanistan in 1979 to 1989 the Russians are getting another a££ kicking. And that was as the Soviet Union... Go read a book or something

[Vulcanone]

cat1

Probably, and that means my serving friends and family getting involved.

[Malcolm]

Lizz Truss really is an absolute gaslighting hawk in this issue. I really cringe that every time some woman is in the current governmental cabinet they always like to portray themselves as an "Iron lady".

Giving all these hand me downs to at cost (to Ukraine) to to make the weapons industrial complex lick their lips at all the future contract to replace them all just make me see the Ukrainian as nothing more than cannon fodder for the profits of the western militaries.

You'd thing that if Ukraine means so much to the west that not supplying them in order to reduce or to actually end the conflict would be the aim of the game but nope, it seems drip feeding the Ukrainians old, out of date, scraps from the west to prolong the war is the only objective that I can see from all of this at the moment.

Utter scam.

I don't like Liz Truss either, but I'm not sure what you're saying?

There is no point giving/selling the Ukrainians modern western stuff - F-22/F-35/F-16/F-15/F-18/Typhoon/Rafale because they have no-one trained to fly (and more importantly fight) them. In the short term they need to be supplied with stuff they are already using, which means Mig-29, Su-27 and Su-25, plus weapons that these things can fire/drop. From NATO sources that means Poland, Bulgaria and Slovakia (and USA ). Even then, they would probably need the western comms/IFF systems removed and restored to the original soviet standards.

A slightly longer term solution would be to reactivate disused/stored aircraft - there are a fair number of Mig29's stored in Hungary, Slovakia and Romania. From GE there are also a shedload stored in the open in Ukraine, but these might be a bit 'holy' now. However, reactivation might be difficult without Russian assistance.

Or if you're saying the west should supply both aircraft and trained pilots, then that's a step no-one is prepared to make.

[HighFlyer21]

Lizz Truss really is an absolute gaslighting hawk in this issue. I really cringe that every time some woman is in the current governmental cabinet they always like to portray themselves as an "Iron lady".

Giving all these hand me downs to at cost (to Ukraine) to to make the weapons industrial complex lick their lips at all the future contract to replace them all just make me see the Ukrainian as nothing more than cannon fodder for the profits of the western militaries.

You'd thing that if Ukraine means so much to the west that not supplying them in order to reduce or to actually end the conflict would be the aim of the game but nope, it seems drip feeding the Ukrainians old, out of date, scraps from the west to prolong the war is the only objective that I can see from all of this at the moment.

Utter scam.

I don't like Liz Truss either, but I'm not sure what you're saying?

There is no point giving/selling the Ukrainians modern western stuff - F-22/F-35/F-16/F-15/F-18/Typhoon/Rafale because they have no-one trained to fly (and more importantly fight) them. In the short term they need to be supplied with stuff they are already using, which means Mig-29, Su-27 and Su-25, plus weapons that these things can fire/drop. From NATO sources that means Poland, Bulgaria and Slovakia (and USA ). Even then, they would probably need the western comms/IFF systems removed and restored to the original soviet standards.

A slightly longer term solution would be to reactivate disused/stored aircraft - there are a fair number of Mig29's stored in Hungary, Slovakia and Romania. From GE there are also a shedload stored in the open in Ukraine, but these might be a bit 'holy' now. However, reactivation might be difficult without Russian assistance.

Or if you're saying the west should supply both aircraft and trained pilots, then that's a step no-one is prepared to make.

I'm saying she is milking this war for profit.

The west shouldn't supply Ukraine with anything as it's not going to realistically benefit anyone and will only draw this out longer and end up in more deaths.

[Malcolm]

I'm saying she is milking this war for profit.

The west shouldn't supply Ukraine with anything as it's not going to realistically benefit anyone and will only draw this out longer and end up in more deaths.

The western arms companies will undoubtedly profit from Putins "Special Military Operation".

But what you're proposing is to starve the Ukrainians of weapons to defend themselves from an external aggressor so that they lose quickly to minimize casualties. I would humbly suggest it's up to the Ukrainians to decide for themselves if/when they want to surrender, or if they want to fight to retain as much of their sovereign territory as possible. If they decide to fight, then I've no problem assisting them and doing everything short of actually committing UK forces to fight on their behalf.

Sometimes you have to stand up to a bully.

[d555]

It's all very well supplying more aircraft but they won't fly themselves. Does the Ukraine have enough combat capable pilots to fly them? Or will the west supply the crews as well?

if we supply the crews, aren't we affectively joining Ukraine which would lead to a much larger war???

Yes. That's what I was alluding to.

[Col Nago]

I’ve said this before, but Ukraine still has an active and effective air defence including aircraft, especially over areas uncontested by the Russians. They just need more planes and helicopters so they can take the fight to the East.

The current documented losses can be found here at the bottom of the page:

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/03/l ... 2.html?m=1

Oryx isn’t some random on the internet btw. He’s become valued by Western intelligence and is regularly quoted in the media and at government level.

Also, there was a video of a UF jet tearing after a Russian jet in a low level dogfight doing the rounds on Twitter at the start of the week. So they’re definitely not hiding.

[scorpont]

The west shouldn't supply Ukraine with anything as it's not going to realistically benefit anyone and will only draw this out longer and end up in more deaths.

Except the Ukrainians who want a Ukraine to go back to and rebuild once this is all over? Would you have rather the Royal Air Force grounded at the first sign of German raids on British soil so as to not draw the conflict out longer?

[Pune]

The west shouldn't supply Ukraine with anything as it's not going to realistically benefit anyone and will only draw this out longer and end up in more deaths.

Except the Ukrainians who want a Ukraine to go back to and rebuild once this is all over? Would you have rather the Royal Air Force grounded at the first sign of German raids on British soil so as to not draw the conflict out longer?

In my opinion we, 'The West' should indeed supply everything Ukraine needs and more, and show Pukin that he is never ever going to win this war, Nato needs to grow a pair and seriously stand up to him, otherwise he will just keep rolling into every ex soviet state to 'reclaim' them.

[Blackcat1]

Anyone else fed up of waking up to the news of another threat from the Gremlin in the Kremlin!!??

[Craig]

Lizz Truss really is an absolute gaslighting hawk in this issue. I really cringe that every time some woman is in the current governmental cabinet they always like to portray themselves as an "Iron lady".

Giving all these hand me downs to at cost (to Ukraine) to to make the weapons industrial complex lick their lips at all the future contract to replace them all just make me see the Ukrainian as nothing more than cannon fodder for the profits of the western militaries.

You'd thing that if Ukraine means so much to the west that not supplying them in order to reduce or to actually end the conflict would be the aim of the game but nope, it seems drip feeding the Ukrainians old, out of date, scraps from the west to prolong the war is the only objective that I can see from all of this at the moment.

Utter scam.

I don't like Liz Truss either, but I'm not sure what you're saying?

There is no point giving/selling the Ukrainians modern western stuff - F-22/F-35/F-16/F-15/F-18/Typhoon/Rafale because they have no-one trained to fly (and more importantly fight) them. In the short term they need to be supplied with stuff they are already using, which means Mig-29, Su-27 and Su-25, plus weapons that these things can fire/drop. From NATO sources that means Poland, Bulgaria and Slovakia (and USA ). Even then, they would probably need the western comms/IFF systems removed and restored to the original soviet standards.

A slightly longer term solution would be to reactivate disused/stored aircraft - there are a fair number of Mig29's stored in Hungary, Slovakia and Romania. From GE there are also a shedload stored in the open in Ukraine, but these might be a bit 'holy' now. However, reactivation might be difficult without Russian assistance.

Or if you're saying the west should supply both aircraft and trained pilots, then that's a step no-one is prepared to make.

I'm saying she is milking this war for profit.

The west shouldn't supply Ukraine with anything as it's not going to realistically benefit anyone and will only draw this out longer and end up in more deaths.

Totally agree Highflyer.

The west, and the western backed coup government in Ukraine since 2014 have messed up.

You now have 2 choices;

Go to war with Russia. (Not a choice fullstop)

Encourage Ukraine to make peace as quickly as possible. (Minimise suffering in a war that Ukraine is never going to win)

What we are actually doing is giving them enough weapons and encouragement that the fight is dragged out and many more will die, the migration of peoples continue, the supply chain issues are exacerbated and possible food shortages occur.

At what point though, if the Ukrainians, including far right Nazi battalions are using our weapons, our ammunition and quite probably with on the ground training/instruction from our forces to kill Russian soldiers, do the Russians consider us to be at war with them anyway?

Especially when you add in the economical, cultural and information war that is visibly being waged.

It's dangerous, hypocritical and ultimately pointless.

[iainpeden]

Anyone else fed up of waking up to the news of another threat from the Gremlin in the Kremlin!!??

Yes, but also emphatically no! While it is horrible, depressing and very worrying, once it goes out of the headlines there is the danger it will be seen as less important by the general public and much less vital to support the Ukraine people.

Interesting that the Kremlin sees FC as so important they have infiltrated two apologists for child murder, rape and the execution of civilians into our pages.

[Rugbyref]

Mention of Putin having both Parkinsons and Cancer. He needs a dose of 7.62 lead poisoning.

[steamy]

I don't like Liz Truss either, but I'm not sure what you're saying?

There is no point giving/selling the Ukrainians modern western stuff - F-22/F-35/F-16/F-15/F-18/Typhoon/Rafale because they have no-one trained to fly (and more importantly fight) them. In the short term they need to be supplied with stuff they are already using, which means Mig-29, Su-27 and Su-25, plus weapons that these things can fire/drop. From NATO sources that means Poland, Bulgaria and Slovakia (and USA ). Even then, they would probably need the western comms/IFF systems removed and restored to the original soviet standards.

A slightly longer term solution would be to reactivate disused/stored aircraft - there are a fair number of Mig29's stored in Hungary, Slovakia and Romania. From GE there are also a shedload stored in the open in Ukraine, but these might be a bit 'holy' now. However, reactivation might be difficult without Russian assistance.

Or if you're saying the west should supply both aircraft and trained pilots, then that's a step no-one is prepared to make.

I'm saying she is milking this war for profit.

The west shouldn't supply Ukraine with anything as it's not going to realistically benefit anyone and will only draw this out longer and end up in more deaths.

Totally agree Highflyer.

The west, and the western backed coup government in Ukraine since 2014 have messed up.

You now have 2 choices;

Go to war with Russia. (Not a choice fullstop)

Encourage Ukraine to make peace as quickly as possible. (Minimise suffering in a war that Ukraine is never going to win)

What we are actually doing is giving them enough weapons and encouragement that the fight is dragged out and many more will die, the migration of peoples continue, the supply chain issues are exacerbated and possible food shortages occur.

At what point though, if the Ukrainians, including far right Nazi battalions are using our weapons, our ammunition and quite probably with on the ground training/instruction from our forces to kill Russian soldiers, do the Russians consider us to be at war with them anyway?

Especially when you add in the economical, cultural and information war that is visibly being waged.

It's dangerous, hypocritical and ultimately pointless.

so, Ukraine just gift themselves to Russia?

[Col Nago]

I was going to post something in response to Craig and HighFlyer21 but I've had to have a word with myself.

[iainpeden]

I was going to post something in response to Craig and HighFlyer21 but I've had to have a word with myself.

Wouldn't worry; I suspect FC is blocked in Moscow which is obviously where they are posting from.

[Bobcode]

Craig and HighFlyer, the most worrying aspect of your post is the possibility that you actually believe what you have posted. Nothing ever came of defeatism and bowing to an unprovoked attack on a peaceful country. The naked truth is Russia have invaded a peaceful country, unprovoked and murdered its citizens. If Ukraine asks for help who is to deny them ?
Appeasing Russia will not end well……

[Pune]

Craig and HighFlyer, the most worrying aspect of your post is the possibility that you actually believe what you have posted. Nothing ever came of defeatism and bowing to an unprovoked attack on a peaceful country. The naked truth is Russia have invaded a peaceful country, unprovoked and murdered its citizens. If Ukraine asks for help who is to deny them ?
Appeasing Russia will not end well……

Well said sir

[Craig]

Anyone else fed up of waking up to the news of another threat from the Gremlin in the Kremlin!!??

Yes, but also emphatically no! While it is horrible, depressing and very worrying, once it goes out of the headlines there is the danger it will be seen as less important by the general public and much less vital to support the Ukraine people.

Interesting that the Kremlin sees FC as so important they have infiltrated two apologists for child murder, rape and the execution of civilians into our pages.

Oh don't worry the media will have something else lined up to keep the publics attention on and you scared and angry.

Notice how covid exited stage left, and it is all about Ukraine now?

You mention the 'danger' that if Ukraine is not in the mainstream then we won't want to support the Ukrainian people, I'd agree. A perfect example of this is Yemen where the US, UK and French backed Saudi led coalition have been carrying out airstrikes for 7 years causing, according to the UN, 375,000 deaths and 24 million people needing humanitarian aid.

Have you see many Yemeni flags flying from homes and churches in the UK?

As to the second part of your post, what are you on about?

Firstly what proof do you have that these things have been carried out exclusively by Russians in Ukraine, and more importantly that I have ever supported it?

so, Ukraine just gift themselves to Russia?

Ukraine has already gifted itself to globalist ambitions, and our mistakes that led to this point can't be changed. All we can do is try and minimise the human suffering, sending weapons in and making sure we fight to the last Ukrainian is not helpful, as they will still lose.

People here like to say, how we can't let a bully like Putin get away with it, but do you really think now they have started it Russia can afford to lose either? Encouraging Zelensky, the billionaire comedian who actually acted in a sitcom as the president of Ukraine, before becoming the president of Ukraine (?!) to change his script and negotiate a ceasefire would be the best outcome for Ukraine in my opinion.

What proof do you have that this is country on country warfare, and Russia are actually looking to conquer Ukraine territorially by the way?

Craig and HighFlyer, the most worrying aspect of your post is the possibility that you actually believe what you have posted. Nothing ever came of defeatism and bowing to an unprovoked attack on a peaceful country. The naked truth is Russia have invaded a peaceful country, unprovoked and murdered its citizens. If Ukraine asks for help who is to deny them ?
Appeasing Russia will not end well……

Bob, the media may have remade it out to look like Ukraine is a flowering democracy and if they repeat the 'unprovoked' attack line enough times you will parrot it, but please do some research and see there are shades of grey at play here.

So you know the west are condemning it as an 'unprovoked' attack but do you even know the reason Russia have given for going into Ukraine? I know it could easily be a lie, or disinformation because that's what the bad Russians do and we never do, but are you not interested as to why they would risk it?

The next level is to see beyond the distraction of this situation in Ukraine and stop taking sides. For that reason I'd like to state I am not a Russian apologist or supporter here, but we are being played and led down the path to something we won't like, and that is why I am against the warmongering from all sides.

I'd seriously recommend to anyone to get a copy of William Guy Carr's book, Pawns in the Game, and gain an understanding that all war is a racket, controlled and brought about by banksters, not nation states.