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Mobile Phones?

A place to chat and discuss everything and anything thats NOT Military Aviation related. No Civilian Aviation content please. We would be grateful for such inclusions on our sister site - Civilian Aviation.
Amp
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Re: Mobile Phones?

Post by Amp » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:20 pm

Vulcan74, I trust you now in agreement that it is an offence to hold a mobile whilst driving a car, then we can get back to reading the aircraft news and seeing the great photos that appear on here. There are of course people who break the law, but on this forum we are all aware.
All the best.

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Nighthawke
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Re: Mobile Phones?

Post by Nighthawke » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:29 pm

Nice to know that you have confidence that all 19,479 FC members abide by the law - especially when only 430 have viewed this thread to date!

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paddyboy
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Re: Mobile Phones?

Post by paddyboy » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:43 am

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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paddyboy
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Re: Mobile Phones?

Post by paddyboy » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:45 am

Not meaning to be controversial here, but :whistle:

I thought 'General Chat' was for any subject, from Cricket to that horrible little climate Goblin :whistle:
XH558, always the first lady in my life
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Thunder
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Re: Mobile Phones?

Post by Thunder » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:32 am

I think the law on this matter relates to whether you’re actually in traffic at the time, which if you’re sitting at a set of lights you are. If the car is out of the flow of traffic ie: car park,lay-by or stopped safely at side of road it is perfectly legal to use a phone.

No time for these eejits that feel the need to use a phone whilst driving and those that drive cars fitted with hands free systems which is most cars nowadays, and still insist on holding the darn thing, well I just want to punch them.

Cessna954
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Re: Mobile Phones?

Post by Cessna954 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:40 pm

I don't know what planet you are on but not this one, have had many experiences of people walking straight out into the road with headphones stuck in their ears not looking.
I'm on the planet of having the Queen's Chartership as a qualified road safety professional - what's your qualification on this matter? On a daily basis I get to review and investigate road traffic accidents and fully understand that the vast majority are caused by human error, but I never loose my sympathy or respect for them as humans and for their families that probably by no fault of their own have to deal with the consequences.
Maybe you don't agree with the mobile phone law!!!
I'm not sure what part of my response passes any view on this, but for avoidance of doubt I fully support and abide by the law on this matter in its entirety. That includes when stationary at traffic signals as the driver is no less required to be able to respond and deal with any manner of unforeseen situations - danger doesn't go away at a red traffic signal. The increased response time of a driver, if distracted by a mobile phone, could well be the difference between life and death for one or other party.

We're all entitled to personal opinions, but they're of little consequence when dealing with the realities of life, or death.

Neil

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The Phantom
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Re: Mobile Phones?

Post by The Phantom » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:40 pm

paddyboy wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:45 am
............ from Cricket to that horrible little climate Goblin :whistle:
I don't know who you mean Paddy! ;)
And she's the new pin-up girl for a whole generation of Millennials! :whistle:

Malcolm
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Re: Mobile Phones?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:13 pm

Thunder wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:32 am
I think the law on this matter relates to whether you’re actually in traffic at the time, which if you’re sitting at a set of lights you are. If the car is out of the flow of traffic ie: car park,lay-by or stopped safely at side of road it is perfectly legal to use a phone.
That's incorrect. Plenty of convictions for people being sat at the side of the road - engine off - using their mobile phone. You are considered to be in control of a car if you have the keys in your possession - even if you aren't in the car! There are cases of people being done for drunk driving like that.

In practice the test the rozzers will use is if the keys are in the ignition. The same road traffic laws apply to all publically accessible places - including things like supermarket car parks. It doesn't matter if you are in or out of the flow of traffic.

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Thunder
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Re: Mobile Phones?

Post by Thunder » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:22 pm

The written law says different, it is perfectly legal to use a hand held device whilst the vehicle is stationary and out of the flow of traffic ie: parked safely at side of the road. I’ve just asked one of my neighbours and he’s Traffic police with 20yrs behind him.

The drink driving one does indeed have a greater scope, with being in the car alone with keys out of the ignition or even being in the immediate vicinity of the car with the keys being deemed to be breaking the law and will likely mean a court appearance.

Malcolm
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Re: Mobile Phones?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:26 am

Thunder wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:22 pm
The written law says different, it is perfectly legal to use a hand held device whilst the vehicle is stationary and out of the flow of traffic ie: parked safely at side of the road. I’ve just asked one of my neighbours and he’s Traffic police with 20yrs behind him.

The drink driving one does indeed have a greater scope, with being in the car alone with keys out of the ignition or even being in the immediate vicinity of the car with the keys being deemed to be breaking the law and will likely mean a court appearance.
Yet another rozzer who doesn't know the laws they're supposed to enforce :whistle:
Jones v Prothero 1952 1 All ER 434 wrote: Stationary Vehicles

Under existing case law, a person may be regarded as driving whilst the engine is running and the vehicle is stationary. This means that an individual stopped at a traffic light could be prosecuted for a mobile phone offence. The intention of the legislation is to promote road safety.

The test for “driving” is a combination of whether an individual is in a substantial sense controlling the movement and direction of a vehicle and the general meaning of the word “drive”.

In Planton v DPP [2002] R.T.R. 9, DC, the Defendant was in a stationary vehicle with the lights on and engine running. The Court held that he had been “driving” for the purposes of the legislation, as the stationary state of a vehicle is not the sole determinative factor as to whether it is being driven. The Defendant’s vehicle was in a place that he could not provide any explanation for how it got there, other than that the car had been driven there by him.

A person may be regarded as driving a stationary vehicle, even when the engine is not running – Jones v Prothero [1952] 1 All ER 434.
From https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/r ... ile-phones

I accept it's very unlikely you'll get done if the engine is off, but the law is the law.

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Thunder
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Re: Mobile Phones?

Post by Thunder » Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:27 am

You need to go and read up a bit more on the definition of ‘parked safely’, what you’ve used above relates to sitting in stationary traffic.

In fact just keep reading the link you refer to, 3 paragraphs down from where you stopped

However, if the vehicle is stationary and parked safely at the time the mobile phone is used, it will not normally be in the public interest to prosecute the offence. Whether a vehicle is regarded as being driven or parked safely will depend on the circumstances of the case (see above).

baz1
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Re: Mobile Phones?

Post by baz1 » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:27 am

so if your sat in a car and not moving surely it cant be classed as a mobile phone because its not moving/mobile??

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Mike
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Re: Mobile Phones?

Post by Mike » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:30 am

baz1 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:27 am
so if your sat in a car and not moving surely it cant be classed as a mobile phone because its not moving/mobile??
:lol: :lol: :lol: :thumb:

baz1
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Re: Mobile Phones?

Post by baz1 » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:40 am

Mike wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:30 am
baz1 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:27 am
so if your sat in a car and not moving surely it cant be classed as a mobile phone because its not moving/mobile??
:lol: :lol: :lol: :thumb:
I suppose it is how the word mobile is defined Mike i'm sure someone will care to enlighten??

Malcolm
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Re: Mobile Phones?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:12 pm

Thunder wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:27 am
You need to go and read up a bit more on the definition of ‘parked safely’, what you’ve used above relates to sitting in stationary traffic.
No. In Jones v Prothero the defendant had been "parked safely" for about 10 minutes, still sitting in the drivers seat. The courts ruled he was still the Driver for the purposes of the law.
Thunder wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:27 am
In fact just keep reading the link you refer to, 3 paragraphs down from where you stopped

However, if the vehicle is stationary and parked safely at the time the mobile phone is used, it will not normally be in the public interest to prosecute the offence. Whether a vehicle is regarded as being driven or parked safely will depend on the circumstances of the case (see above).
I assume the paragraph you're referring to is this :
Public interest

Academic research suggests that using a hand-held mobile phone, whilst driving, is a serious distraction to the driver. Accordingly, the public interest will weigh in favour of a prosecution for a mobile phone offence provided that the evidential test relevant to the offence is met.

However, if the vehicle is stationary and parked safely at the time the mobile phone is used, it will not normally be in the public interest to prosecute the offence. Whether a vehicle is regarded as being driven or parked safely will depend on the circumstances of the case (see above).
Note the bits I've highlighted. It won't be the police who decide on the circumstances of the case or what 'normally' means - in the end it'll be the courts if the police/CPS take it that far. So as I wrote it's unlikely you'll get prosecuted but you can't rule it out. Also note what "Ask the Police" have to say on the matter :
https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q955.htm
Mobile phone - use when parked
Whether someone is driving in terms of the law is a question of fact and degree and is ultimately a matter for a court to decide. If you are sat in the driving seat of a vehicle on a road with the engine running you will usually be deemed to be driving for the purposes of this offence. There have even been cases where people have been found to be driving when they have let the vehicle roll forward without the engine running. In order to ensure you don't break the law in relation to using a phone in a layby /when stationary, we would suggest the following:
◾Use a hands free kit
◾Sit in the passenger/rear seat
◾Ideally, don't use the phone at all
So even if you are safely parked, they're suggesting you sit in the passenger/rear seats.

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C24
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Re: Mobile Phones?

Post by C24 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:42 am

Isn’t it also the case that even if you are standing next to a vehicle and have the ignition key in your possession it can be deemed that you are “in charge” of the vehicle?
I watch too much tv
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Thunder
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Re: Mobile Phones?

Post by Thunder » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:27 pm

Depends on the circumstances. The only time that I would imagine the police try pulling that one would be if they thought you had recently committed a serious traffic offence and had good cause to think you were the driver.

A few years back a friend of mine got convicted of being drunk and in charge of a vehicle. He stayed out in the country and drove into town one Friday night, we ended up going out on the lash. At the end of the night he went to his car to grab his jacket(he was going to crash at mine), which was lying on the back seat. Doing what he/we thought was the right thing he opened the rear passenger side door to retrieve it and as soon as his head entered the car the blue lights appeared and he was charged. At court despite me being witness he was fined and banned.

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Mike
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Re: Mobile Phones?

Post by Mike » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:44 pm

Thunder wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:27 pm
At the end of the night he went to his car to grab his jacket (he was going to crash at mine)
Oops! :whistle:

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Thunder
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Re: Mobile Phones?

Post by Thunder » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:03 pm

‘Crash’ maybe not best term to use.

Seriously though it just shows how easy it can happen, although in this day and age with the use of cctv, car and personal body cams I doubt that particular case would stand.

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