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RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

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Malcolm
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:32 pm

Andypandy wrote:how does the tax figurres quoted break down?
Some oild must arrive down south at refineries. Grangemouth cant handle it all. Some tax revenue must be generated from that. The oil is owned by the oil company who digs it up, they can send it wherever best suites them.
chopperscot wrote:Can I ask a stupid question, what will Westminster do after they loose all the oil revenue, when the big separation happens.
Surely there going to loose hundreds of millions a year! I feel sorry for the common English man, who's taxes are going to rise, because their never going to increase company taxes!?
Chopper, AndyP is Correct, UK gets very little money from the Oil or Gas. What it does get is a tax take on the oil extracted, and money from the sale of new licenses to explore new areas. So whilst the value of the oil/gas extracted may be £100's of billions, HMG only gets about £5bn a year in tax revenue from it. So SNP/Salmond is correct when he says the oil is worth £100's of billions. The problem is, UK/Scotland won't own it - the oil companies do - unless he attempts to nationalise the oil companies based in Scotland. That would go down well internationaly - see Venesuala. :ninja:

Malcolm
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:38 pm

ArabJazzie wrote:Malcolm,
I do believe the devolved Scottish Government does have limited borrowing powers which are helping to pay for capital projects like the new Forth Crossing.
Arabest,
Geoff.
Don't think so, at least not yet. There is a bill going through parliament which will allow the Scottish parliament to vary some taxes (like income tax) by +/- 5%. I think it's due to be enacted next year. I wasn't aware it allows Scotland to borrow, but I suppose it might. However that will all be up in the air again in the event of a yes vote next month.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2013/04/5026/3

jamax00
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by jamax00 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:47 pm

Hi

The powers are already in place and Scottish Income tax is a reality from 6th April 2015.

Nothing to do with referendum.

Alex

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onemac
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by onemac » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:48 pm

chopperscot wrote:Can I ask a stupid question, what will Westminster do after they loose all the oil revenue, when the big separation happens.?
Stupid questions usually have simple answers. In this case it's because it's not Scotland's oil as most of the rigs are in international waters, most of the companies are international and because international licences are governed by international agreements. Any separation would necessitate renewal of those agreements. Can you see Scotland getting 100% of the tax revenues? I can't.

If you want to argue pro-rata percentages whilst avoiding pro-rata UK debts then I think you start from a very weak position indeed. More likely the companies will broker a deal with the more stable country and then move all their assets to that country because they can resulting in thousands of jobs lost and a mass exodus down south.

Al

Malcolm
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:55 pm

Andypandy wrote:with Eck threatening to walk away from his share of the debt it would make sense to turn the taps off from Westminster almost immediately. Why not? We hear very little of what the UK plans are post independance. They may well cut us loose. " you voted for it, take it, your on your own" I would do that.
That would be spitefull, vindictive and counter productive.

For all the fuss, believe it or not the referendum isn't binding on the UK :halo: . Westminster can chose to ignore the referendum result. Parliament has to vote to repeal the Act Of Union. That vote won't happen until both sides are happy with the details of the separation - and rUK will want settlement of the debt issue. I forsee years of negotiations, followed by another referendum on whether the Scottish people want independence on these now agreed terms - perhaps in 2020 at the time of the next Westminster Generel election.

There is naff all chance of Scotland gaining independence in 2016 IMHO.

What worries me is if there is a narrow Yes vote next month, but then there is a big backlash in the 2015 general election, and the SNP lose their majority in Scotland (or Labour gain a majority). Who then claims to be speaking for the Scottish people?

ythanpythan
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by ythanpythan » Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:24 pm

onemac wrote: Stupid questions usually have simple answers. In this case it's because it's not Scotland's oil as most of the rigs are in international waters, most of the companies are international and because international licences are governed by international agreements. Any separation would necessitate renewal of those agreements.
That's not how it works Al, ownership is defined using the area defined by the continental shelf and economic zones expand well beyond the traditional territorial 12 miles reaching out to 200 miles. How these areas are defined has a number of common practices and conventions and wouldn't be the hardest part of separation. Incidentally that's why we pitch up on Rockall every so often as it extends our economic zone westward by a considerable margin!

Licences are granted by the government on behalf of the crown so the licences would simply transfer up. The companies may be international but each one needs a registered company in the location it is producing from, e.g. Shell E&P UK and their Norwegian counterparts Norske Shell, each company then pays tax in the country it produces from.

Hope that helps.

hertsman

Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by hertsman » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:09 am

chopperscot wrote:Can I ask a stupid question, what will Westminster do after they loose all the oil revenue, when the big separation happens.
Surely there going to loose hundreds of millions a year! I feel sorry for the common English man, who's taxes are going to rise, because their never going to increase company taxes!?
Suspect you may be trying to tweak a few tails south of the border CS, as I'm sure you know that he allocation of NS assets has yet to be agreed (like just about every other aspect of a separation). There are two basic methods of oil allocation - by population or geographically. The first method gives Scotland about 8 or 9 % - the common Englishman can afford a nice drop of Scotland's other famous export. The second gives Scotland about 90%, and the common Englishman will have to spend his last few pence on a nice cup of tea. If so, perhaps our old friends north of Berwick might send us a few bottles as a gesture of thanks for all our past help?

hertsman

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onemac
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by onemac » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:38 am

ythanpythan wrote:That's not how it works Al, ownership is defined using the area defined by the continental shelf and economic zones expand well beyond the traditional territorial 12 miles reaching out to 200 miles. How these areas are defined has a number of common practices and conventions and wouldn't be the hardest part of separation. Incidentally that's why we pitch up on Rockall every so often as it extends our economic zone westward by a considerable margin!

Licences are granted by the government on behalf of the crown so the licences would simply transfer up. The companies may be international but each one needs a registered company in the location it is producing from, e.g. Shell E&P UK and their Norwegian counterparts Norske Shell, each company then pays tax in the country it produces from.

Hope that helps.
Cheers Ian. Kind of blows my argument but if Vatican City can have it's own rules within Rome then surely Crown Land, or MOD Operational Land, can be retained for tax purposes? Clinging at straws here but it does raise the question of Crown Land of which there is much in Scotland. Interesting how the Independent Scotland would go about asking Her Maj for it back. And what's the betting Independent Scotland won't get anything of value in the Falklands - more heather country and the odd beach with some Penguins on it?

Al

ythanpythan
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by ythanpythan » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:44 am

The land assets would likely transfer across as 'Crown ownership' generally means owned by the country rather than privately by Her Majesty as we'd not be a republic at the time of separation they should just move across. As for the MOD I think that would be the same but usage may change depending on any basing agreements I expect.

We wouldn't have any tax take from anything in the Falklands I think but Scottish based firms would be in a strong position to compete for contracts down there, this is where the international aspects of the oil companies really kick in as they currently source based on capability primarily, we're well used to dealing with vendors from other countries on projects.

ythanpythan
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by ythanpythan » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:57 am

hertsman wrote:
chopperscot wrote:Can I ask a stupid question, what will Westminster do after they loose all the oil revenue, when the big separation happens.
Surely there going to loose hundreds of millions a year! I feel sorry for the common English man, who's taxes are going to rise, because their never going to increase company taxes!?
Suspect you may be trying to tweak a few tails south of the border CS, as I'm sure you know that he allocation of NS assets has yet to be agreed (like just about every other aspect of a separation). There are two basic methods of oil allocation - by population or geographically. The first method gives Scotland about 8 or 9 % - the common Englishman can afford a nice drop of Scotland's other famous export. The second gives Scotland about 90%, and the common Englishman will have to spend his last few pence on a nice cup of tea. If so, perhaps our old friends north of Berwick might send us a few bottles as a gesture of thanks for all our past help?

hertsman
Mineral (including hydrocarbon) rights are allocated geographically using internationally accepted processes to define the areas allotted to each country. This applies both onshore and offshore.

POL
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by POL » Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:49 pm

Without wishing to get too drawn in to that statement, Scotland's NHS is not controlled by the Department of Health in England, same as NHS Wales. Any privitisation of the Scottish NHS and its commissioning and provider services is being done by Scotland.

JEB
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by JEB » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:09 pm

Well said chopperscot. There is nothing in that reasoning that I could possibly disagree with.
JEB.

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Mike
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by Mike » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:40 pm

All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what has the Westminster government ever done for Scotland?

:lol: :whistle:

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onemac
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by onemac » Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:28 pm

Adam wrote:Has this become a copy and paste thread? :S
Nope - I can think for myself :D

Al

POL
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by POL » Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:19 pm

Adam wrote:Has this become a copy and paste thread? :S
Nope - I can think for myself :D

Chris










:whistle:

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Mike
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by Mike » Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:46 am

Apologies chaps - I couldn't resist !

Keep calm and carry on with this excellent debate. :)

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graeme923
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by graeme923 » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:40 am

O How I long for some posts related to aviation on this non political Aviation site

Contrail1958
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by Contrail1958 » Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:26 am

graeme923 wrote:O How I long for some posts related to aviation on this non political Aviation site
You may be unaware but politics does affect aviation.
There is nothing stopping you starting your own post should you feel the inclination of doing so.

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onemac
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Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by onemac » Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:30 am

Mike wrote:All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what has the Westminster government ever done for Scotland?
Given it its own Parliament with which to hang itself. Seems to be working :Wow:

Al

lhrlima

Re: RAF Lossiemouth after Independence?

Post by lhrlima » Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:36 pm

graeme923 wrote:O How I long for some posts related to aviation on this non political Aviation site
As the person who started this thread, please accept my apologies! :Oops: However, my original question was meant from an aviation related perspective!

Steve.

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