Testers and problems with the undershoot area.

[varisian]

This subject is broadening out away from the strict definition of the "undershoot area." Also on the direct flight line are the 9th Tee, the 8th Green and the front portion of the 7th Tee of the Old Course. Golfers are very regularly on these areas as jets are on approach.

People in these areas and passing traffic on the Lossie - Hopeman Road are in potential danger but if you do the sums, and for proper risk assessments they should be done, you'll undoubtably find that whilst the likely outcome of an accident wiould be death for those involved the likelyhood of it happening is so low that golf will continue and traffic will not be impeded on the road.

If the encroachers are successfully discouraged then I'm sure this issue will quickly disappear.

[Thunder]

This subject is broadening out away from the strict definition of the "undershoot area." Also on the direct flight line are the 9th Tee, the 8th Green and the front portion of the 7th Tee of the Old Course. Golfers are very regularly on these areas as jets are on approach.

People in these areas and passing traffic on the Lossie - Hopeman Road are in potential danger but if you do the sums, and for proper risk assessments they should be done, you'll undoubtably find that whilst the likely outcome of an accident wiould be death for those involved the likelyhood of it happening is so low that golf will continue and traffic will not be impeded on the road.

If the encroachers are successfully discouraged then I'm sure this issue will quickly disappear.

The difference with the golfers and the road users is that they are not loitering in the said zone. Also if anything was to happen to an a/c out past the main road the chances of aborting the landing and going into a go around etc... are far greater. Yes any area around an airfield as it's dangers as was demonstrated at Bournemouth at the weekend, but standing anywhere between the second bar and threshold is plain stupidity nothing else and those that continue to do so are going to spoil it for the rest of us.

+1 for a spotter scheme, with Lossie going to be the only RAF station in Scotland soon it's going to start attracting more idiots to it, so no better time to try and nip this problem in the bud ....... before the RAF/MoD do it for us.

[Jabba]

My training has shown me that it isnt only the centreline that is a dangerous area to stand in! Ive seen many a picture of an aircraft that experienced a bird strike on finals and ended up left or right of centreline! The graph that is used to demonstrate this merges into a huge blob of black that extends a good distance either side. To put that onto the area we stand at Lossie, i would say this area would go past the tree line to the east and at least half way down the track to the west. This also applies for standing at the fence at the other end as well! You are also attracting more bird activity as well in a critical area just by being there!

Agreed those who take the picnic on the centreline should be moved, but if you are on the pillbox or sitting by your car, you are in as much danger!!! However, statistics say you are more likely to die in a car crash!!!
Arabest,
Geoff.

The distance of the crowd line at an airshow from the runway I think would give an idea of what's acceptable to our friends in the RAF in terms of 'a safe distance' from the runway. As a guesstimate the Pill Box and the end of the track at the 23 end could be considered a safe distance but if you look at the accidents and incidents there's been at Lossie on or near the base in the last 40 years then you would need to have a half mile exclusion zone. Let's be honest with ourselves here and admit it's not about our personal safety but about keeping the peace with the RAF so we can keep using all the other areas that aren't contentious.

In a similar vein I've seen people trampling down crops in fields adjacent to the 05 runway end to get shots of aircraft coming down the taxiway because they were too lazy to walk around the edge of the field. The selfishness of a few again putting at risk the good areas we have for taking photos.

If the rumours are true it might all be academic anyway since the MOD are allegedly going to construct a 12 ft high solid fence around the base for the F-35, if it ever comes.

[ArabJazzie]

Jabba,
I think that airshow display lines are based on CAA guidelines and if you continue the graph from my training down the runway, the crash plots outside the the runway reduce dramatically. But having said that, notable incidents at my work have seen 3 aircraft depart to the left around the touchdown point.

However, as the RAF and local police will be asked to have a word on a Health and Safety grounds, this is about personal safety! I would think that someone on the base has had a look at the undershoot, probably on a day a large group were on the centreline and flagged it up!!! Then again, you have the Typhoon coming soon and there seems to be a huge bit of sensitivity about looking up the intake.

And if they do build the 12ft fence, at least they wont see you on the centreline behind it!!! But you just have to look at Leuchars 09 end for the type of fence to be built at the end of the runway!
Arabest,
Geoff.

[ArabJazzie]

ATC,
There is certain fault on the Tornado where it dumps fuel and hence becomes an IFE. Caught this recently over Staffordshire, and is quite impressive to watch until you ask yourself when did it start and how long to base!!!
Arabest,
Geoff.

[Thunder]

If the rumours are true it might all be academic anyway since the MOD are allegedly going to construct a 12 ft high solid fence around the base for the F-35, if it ever comes.

Believe when I see it. A similar rumour was going around when the Tornado's started arriving at Lossie in 1993 and all that happened was a new fence was erected to replace the old original fence which turned out to be no higher than what was already there. As ATCManch states the fenceline, I think 100m (depending on distance from the TDA) of the centreline has to be reduced and constructed in a frangible manner.

The most likely outcome for us, is that the RAF request Moray Golf Club to place barriers/obstacles across the end of the access track, like they did at the track on the opposite side of the 23 approach when people continually blocked the Crash Gate with their cars.

[Jabba]

Jabba, there are also rules and regulations regarding dumping fuel and at what height at what time of year this can be done. It is most certainly not at 100ft AGL for the very reasons you've just given. Personally, if I saw this happening I would report the crew. Anyhow, the last thing I'd be wanting to do is dumping fuel in a fighter on short final in an emergency just in case I needed to go around and put on ones afterburner. Concorde anyone?

One of the times I saw this the aircraft (Jaguar) had just taken off, immediately declared a mayday, started dumping fuel and continued to do so all the way down the approach and ended by taking the wire. I'm sure the Jaguar pilot knew there were rules and regulations about dumping fuel but that didn't seem to make a lot difference in a mayday situation!

As regards the fence, only reporting what I heard. The logic of it doesn't make a lot of sense to me, time will tell if or what they erect. Cheap DSLR anyone..........

[onemac]

It's obviously an issue that has been brought up recently where somebody has to be seen to be doing something because if they are worried about safety they would put traffic lights up at the Duffus end to stop traffic when aircraft are landing. Looks like my little lay-by up from the compound is going to get a bit busy If they do put up that fence though......

For Hire:

1 x set of steps (3 step) - approx 3'
1 x set (taller) steps (5 step) - approx 5'
1 x set extendable ladders (many, many steps/rungs) - approx 20'. Note:- not free-standing

Suit short ar*e or similar. Can be used on the road or verge (except the ladders - they will require something to lean against). Reasonably stable although crosswind limits will apply. Must have own insurance........

Al

[ArabJazzie]

Update fro today.

Base was using 05, at about 10.30-1100ish Raf Police arrived by the compound and moved guys that had walked up the side of the compound to stand and take photos. One chap had parked on the other side of the Gordonstoun rd by the passing place and walked all the way round to the corner with the sun behind and he too was asked to go back to the road.

A bit contensious yes,Annoying Yes but in the interest of good relations we obeyed.

On the matter of the 12ft fence the Copper seems to believe it will happen and in time for the Tiffies arriving, Large steps anyone.

Les

Looks like you are getting the same as Leuchars got a few years ago! They said it was to combat the deer problem but i had my doubts at the time!!! It might even go as far as moving us on all of the time but i hope not.
Arabest,
Geoff.

[Al dunn]

This is why you dont play in the underurn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VYwhzt8 ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Alan

[ArabJazzie]

Having been caught by the tidal wave from 2 B-1s departing 09 at Leuchars a good while ago, i would choose which aircraft i want to stand behind. And i would certainly not have been the person who went tumbling through the field at Cottesmore!!!
Arabest,
Geoff.