Sunday Times - F-35 order to be cut by 90

[The wrong stuff]

If we have a percentage rate of 60% due to faults issues etc(working from memory of a recent statistic) then this gives us about 30 at any one time when we have procured all of them ,is that really enough? Is my 60 % figure erroneous ? I think 70 would be far more sustainable for this very reason.

[Agent K]

If we have a percentage rate of 60% due to faults issues etc(working from memory of a recent statistic) then this gives us about 30 at any one time when we have procured all of them ,is that really enough? Is my 60 % figure erroneous ? I think 70 would be far more sustainable for this very reason.

Which ever way you look at it, it doesn't appear to be enough by a long shot. When you looked at Tornado Ops, and this would be similar, you would need at least 3 squadrons to sustain an operation, i.e. 1 x deployed, 1 x returned off deployment, 1 x working up for deployment. Factor in also test and evaluation aircraft (including 17 squadron in the USA), training/OCU, aircraft in various levels of maintenance, then you'll be lucky to have 10 aircraft available for any sustained deployment.

[Canberra TT.18]

If we have a percentage rate of 60% due to faults issues etc(working from memory of a recent statistic) then this gives us about 30 at any one time when we have procured all of them ,is that really enough? Is my 60 % figure erroneous ? I think 70 would be far more sustainable for this very reason.

Which ever way you look at it, it doesn't appear to be enough by a long shot. When you looked at Tornado Ops, and this would be similar, you would need at least 3 squadrons to sustain an operation, i.e. 1 x deployed, 1 x returned off deployment, 1 x working up for deployment. Factor in also test and evaluation aircraft (including 17 squadron in the USA), training/OCU, aircraft in various levels of maintenance, then you'll be lucky to have 10 aircraft available for any sustained deployment.

A deployment aboard the QE will see 2x12 or 3x10 fighters (QE has space for some 30 fighters + 10 helicopters I believe) deploy at once. So the 1-1-1 rule with units doesn't work with a carrier. What happens with Prince of Wales. No need to have 2 (super) carriers with only 48 fighters I guess, as you can't deploy the same aircraft/units with the second carrier. Once the first returns from a deployment.

[thevulcan]

Hence the Navy asking BAE to begin looking at refitting for catapult use this would allow one carrier to operate F35B and the other to be catapult fitted and operate navalised Typhoon or off the shelf F18 etc this would also allow the carrier to be used by NATO types.
Article below:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/0 ... -aircraft/

[Vulcanone]

Except its highly likely Naval Typhoon is long dead and buried.

[Canberra TT.18]

Last time they asked cost were £1 to 2 billion.
You could by up to 18 additional F-35s

As a dutchman I look at the UK/MoD and in some way it looks like every 5 year there is a total new strategy.
With system just bought or in service and not needed the next.
How come only a few days ago a program was announced to replace the Pumas and now it looks like 45 Transport helicopters have to go
Years thinking/developing the ASTOR Sentinels system and now they go. Cut the Nimrod MR and next buy Poseidon (maybe not completely the same).
Hercules now have to go and A400 take over special operations task. Funny is that France and Germany bought C-130J specially for the special operation task as the A400s are to large.

Also the French Germans and Spanish (to name a few) all have bought extra aircraft/helicopters as part of industry support packages as part of Covid support. Have the UK?

The Dutch have decided not to buy to much systems with own systems or dedicated features but more of the shelf. It is cheaper and cheaper to maintain.
Primary you have to ask yourself what do we have or want to do and what can we afford.

[RubyRoo]

The amount of misinformation in this thread alone is astonishing. To clarify;

1. The IR was instigated prior to Covid-19 and was intended to reflect Britain's position/ambition in a post-Brexit world. It also addresses the massive cost deficit that the MoD has run up. The resultant findings have nothing to do with Covid-19. Please read TonyO's comments in this regard. The cult of Brexit has severely damaged the immediate + long term British economy. Covid-19 obviously hasn't helped in this regard, but cutbacks were always going to be needed regardless.

2. The "cats and traps" that have recently come to the fore are part of a wider study to launch smaller drone style aircraft from any suitable vessel.

Taken from the UKDJ:

"In fact, the upper and lower weight limits of the catapult and recovery system outlined aren’t enough to launch or recover any variant of the F-35 in normal conditions. It’s far more likely that the launch and recovery options mentioned would be utilised for larger uncrewed aircraft as the armed forces begin to rely on them more and more in place of crewed platforms. My impression, and that of most I speak to, is that this will indeed enable the adoption of larger uncrewed platforms on the carriers."

No F-18. No F-35C. Absolutely no way whatsoever Navalised Typhoon.

3. Those capable of rationality could see it a mile off, but I hope that all those who lauded the government for the added £16 billion increase in defence spending in other threads are now going to appropriately criticise that very same government for the looming cuts?

[andrewn]

The amount of misinformation in this thread alone is astonishing. To clarify;

1. The IR was instigated prior to Covid-19 and was intended to reflect Britain's position/ambition in a post-Brexit world. It also addresses the massive cost deficit that the MoD has run up. The resultant findings have nothing to do with Covid-19. Please read TonyO's comments in this regard. The cult of Brexit has severely damaged the immediate + long term British economy. Covid-19 obviously hasn't helped in this regard, but cutbacks were always going to be needed regardless.

2. The "cats and traps" that have recently come to the fore are part of a wider study to launch smaller drone style aircraft from any suitable vessel.

Taken from the UKDJ:

"In fact, the upper and lower weight limits of the catapult and recovery system outlined aren’t enough to launch or recover any variant of the F-35 in normal conditions. It’s far more likely that the launch and recovery options mentioned would be utilised for larger uncrewed aircraft as the armed forces begin to rely on them more and more in place of crewed platforms. My impression, and that of most I speak to, is that this will indeed enable the adoption of larger uncrewed platforms on the carriers."

No F-18. No F-35C. Absolutely no way whatsoever Navalised Typhoon.

3. Those capable of rationality could see it a mile off, but I hope that all those who lauded the government for the added £16 billion increase in defence spending in other threads are now going to appropriately criticise that very same government for the looming cuts?

Ruby, you talk about "misinformation" but then try to position the ongoing EP funding blackhole as Brexit related?? Surely, you'll know that we always have a slash and burn Defence review about every 5 years, primarily in order to redress the imbalance between ambition and reality

[RubyRoo]

I haven't implied that the spending deficit is Brexit related at all, only that in a post-Brexit hit economy, it will be even harder to manage the existing commitments in our defence plans.

The current overspends were always down to the mismanagement of funds by the MoD itself, and the exorbitant contracts that were drawn up with the likes of BAE.

I'm all for preserving British jobs and expertise, but this government (and future governments of all allegiances) need to decide whether they want to control costs and buy more available things for cheaper off the shelf prices, or whether they are willing to constantly spend more than is needed on domestically built equipment.

[Reach1985]

Last time they asked cost were £1 to 2 billion.
You could by up to 18 additional F-35s

As a dutchman I look at the UK/MoD and in some way it looks like every 5 year there is a total new strategy.
With system just bought or in service and not needed the next.
How come only a few days ago a program was announced to replace the Pumas and now it looks like 45 Transport helicopters have to go
Years thinking/developing the ASTOR Sentinels system and now they go. Cut the Nimrod MR and next buy Poseidon (maybe not completely the same).
Hercules now have to go and A400 take over special operations task. Funny is that France and Germany bought C-130J specially for the special operation task as the A400s are to large.

Also the French Germans and Spanish (to name a few) all have bought extra aircraft/helicopters as part of industry support packages as part of Covid support. Have the UK?

The Dutch have decided not to buy to much systems with own systems or dedicated features but more of the shelf. It is cheaper and cheaper to maintain.
Primary you have to ask yourself what do we have or want to do and what can we afford.

Bonkers right? I think it’s fair to assume that there is no such thing as a strategy.

[Reach1985]

This is a fairly comprehensive review of possible/probable outcomes of the upcoming defence review for all 3 services.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... s-and-more

[TonyO]

The amount of misinformation in this thread alone is astonishing. To clarify;

1. The IR was instigated prior to Covid-19 and was intended to reflect Britain's position/ambition in a post-Brexit world. It also addresses the massive cost deficit that the MoD has run up. The resultant findings have nothing to do with Covid-19. Please read TonyO's comments in this regard. The cult of Brexit has severely damaged the immediate + long term British economy. Covid-19 obviously hasn't helped in this regard, but cutbacks were always going to be needed regardless.

2. The "cats and traps" that have recently come to the fore are part of a wider study to launch smaller drone style aircraft from any suitable vessel.

Taken from the UKDJ:

"In fact, the upper and lower weight limits of the catapult and recovery system outlined aren’t enough to launch or recover any variant of the F-35 in normal conditions. It’s far more likely that the launch and recovery options mentioned would be utilised for larger uncrewed aircraft as the armed forces begin to rely on them more and more in place of crewed platforms. My impression, and that of most I speak to, is that this will indeed enable the adoption of larger uncrewed platforms on the carriers."

No F-18. No F-35C. Absolutely no way whatsoever Navalised Typhoon.

3. Those capable of rationality could see it a mile off, but I hope that all those who lauded the government for the added £16 billion increase in defence spending in other threads are now going to appropriately criticise that very same government for the looming cuts?

RubyRoo has got it in one, well three. The issue with Brexit is that the damage it is doing is being masked by a more damaging COVID, as a result our recovery will be tougher than in other European countries, fast vaccination program or not.

[Agent K]

Hence the Navy asking BAE to begin looking at refitting for catapult use this would allow one carrier to operate F35B and the other to be catapult fitted and operate navalised Typhoon or off the shelf F18 etc this would also allow the carrier to be used by NATO types.
Article below:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/0 ... -aircraft/

You honestly think that they’ll slash a fleet (F35) to cut costs and then add another different fleet, F18 or whatever? With all the cost of new infrastructure and overheads?! What would be the purpose? Think it through! Might as well stay with the overall F35 buy!

[scottoz8]

This is a fairly comprehensive review of possible/probable outcomes of the upcoming defence review for all 3 services.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... s-and-more

I would assume most of the Typhoon cuts would come from the ones in store, I think there is about 17 Tranche 1's and the others maybe from high houred frames.

[TonyO]

This is a fairly comprehensive review of possible/probable outcomes of the upcoming defence review for all 3 services.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... s-and-more

I would assume most of the Typhoon cuts would come from the ones in store, I think there is about 17 Tranche 1's

Aren't those ones in store now Christmas trees to support the rest of the fleet, to all intents, they are withdrawn from use.

[Vulcanone]

There is a list of the Typhoons at Shawbury on that section for those so inclined to research numbers

[scottoz8]

This is a fairly comprehensive review of possible/probable outcomes of the upcoming defence review for all 3 services.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... s-and-more

I would assume most of the Typhoon cuts would come from the ones in store, I think there is about 17 Tranche 1's

Aren't those ones in store now Christmas trees to support the rest of the fleet, to all intents, they are withdrawn from use.

knowing the MOD being vague, the ones in storage ,ie earlier will be the ones meant., but who knows, we shall see,better start playing flight sim again, I might be called up !!!

[RubyRoo]

First Sea Lord has confirmed the intent to buy F-35B numbers in the 60-80 range by 2032, but no official commitment.

I’d imagine a follow on order for a new batch would occur in the 2026 timeframe, if at all.

~70 odd units is the minimum number required to make the F-35B a credible force as I stated in one of my previous posts.

[PeteHemsley]

Military aviation will be pretty much non existent in 10 years. Makes me very sad, but it's a sign of the times.

[Finty]

Military aviation will be pretty much non existent in 10 years. Makes me very sad, but it's a sign of the times.

Sounds like wibble to me. It will be different yes but not non-existent...