FighterControl

Maybe this is the wrong section, but I think I should make a comment on the latest accidents. As with big events around the Uk, be it motor or airshows, there is a element of risk to the public. Today the news is full of the crash of the hawker hunter on a main road. Everyone knows the risk of airshows when they attended, same as when the public attend motorbike racing or F1 racing. Anything could happen. Organiser try to make assessment for the safety of all with stricked rules. It would be a shame if the Shoreham airshow, changed the way airshow were run, such as just flyby only.

In the aftermath of the Shoreham catastrophe there may well be an investigation into the airspace that is used, the manner it is used and maybe even the aircraft that are used. The people on the A27 were going about their normal lives. Some were merely waiting at the traffic lights.

something may have to be changed, and don't be surprised if it does.

Cheers
John 'flightpath'.

Are privately owned ex military display aircraft like spitfires, jet provost & hawker hunters, kept in airworthy condition more than normal cessname light aircraft?. Also could this accident put a stop to displays by vintage aircraft, due to airframe age?. I know this could be the last season for the Vulcan due to age, but the Lancaster and the rest of the BBM fly on, due to the highest maintenance by the RAF.

Perhaps now Duxford will do a lot more than just those warning signs that everyone ignores and sort out physically stopping people from going in the naughty field or maybe the pilots being more forceful with Duxford and refusing to display if they're people in the area??

Would this also spell the end of the campsites by Fairford??

Airfixpilot, look up the difference in requirements between a Certificate of Airworthiness, which the majority of "major" aircraft, such as airliners, civilian helicopters and light aircraft such as Cessnas and Pipers are on, and a Permit to Fly, which former military aircraft and home/kit-built aircraft are on. That will give you an idea as to the differences in what is needed for an aircraft to be declared airworthy.

Hi rdchawk, I agree with you on crowd lines at airshows, and fools who cross them, but this accident was outside the perimeter. One thing the news are saying is having airshows over the sea (at seasides). Any comments on this?.

airfixpilot wrote:Any comments on this?.

Yes. Boats...

rdchawk wrote:Perhaps now Duxford will do a lot more than just those warning signs that everyone ignores and sort out physically stopping people from going in the naughty field or maybe the pilots being more forceful with Duxford and refusing to display if they're people in the area??

Disagree strongly with people trying to draw this conclusion.

People in the naughty field are there to watch/photograph the air-show. The people who have died on the A27 were just going about their daily lives and driving down the nearby road. The nearest comparison to your conclusion would be that the M11 is closed for the duration of the air-show. Obviously not going to happen. Focusing on people being where the air-show organisers would rather they weren't has nothing to do with this incident.

EGVP wrote:Yes. Boats...

Indeed, ask Steve Johnson, Red Arrows, Brighton 1980

But my point is that the people in the naughty field are "in the display area/danger zone" And thus in the firing line if something did happen, But because they're holding a camera it makes it ok? Is that what you're saying?

Malcolm wrote:

rdchawk wrote:Perhaps now Duxford will do a lot more than just those warning signs that everyone ignores and sort out physically stopping people from going in the naughty field or maybe the pilots being more forceful with Duxford and refusing to display if they're people in the area??

Disagree strongly with people trying to draw this conclusion.

People in the naughty field are there to watch/photograph the air-show. The people who have died on the A27 were just going about their daily lives and driving down the nearby road. The nearest comparison to your conclusion would be that the M11 is closed for the duration of the air-show. Obviously not going to happen. Focusing on people being where the air-show organisers would rather they weren't has nothing to do with this incident.

You are quite right, completely separate subject, and policing is the answer to that one. They'll be asking for Rhymes farm to be cordoned off next at RIAT

Pune wrote:

Malcolm wrote:

rdchawk wrote:Perhaps now Duxford will do a lot more than just those warning signs that everyone ignores and sort out physically stopping people from going in the naughty field or maybe the pilots being more forceful with Duxford and refusing to display if they're people in the area??

Disagree strongly with people trying to draw this conclusion.

People in the naughty field are there to watch/photograph the air-show. The people who have died on the A27 were just going about their daily lives and driving down the nearby road. The nearest comparison to your conclusion would be that the M11 is closed for the duration of the air-show. Obviously not going to happen. Focusing on people being where the air-show organisers would rather they weren't has nothing to do with this incident.

You are quite right, completely separate subject, and policing is the answer to that one. They'll be asking for Rhymes farm to be cordoned off next at RIAT

But the pilots have already voiced some concerns at Duxford already in regards to the field - so what I'm saying is would this incident lead to further concerns and possible no displays from pilots not happy with freeloaders in the field?? The display zone should have no public in it IF possible, Its possible for Duxford to get that field empty but it does mean dipping more into pockets and actually police it instead of wasting money on leaflets and posters that the freeloaders ignore anyway.

They have tried to stop the farmer opening rhymes fields since time began, it is one of the best places to watch the display and you will be at risk from an aircraft display no matter where you are. If you are within a 5 mile radius of an airfield during an airshow then you will be at risk, shoreham does seem like a too small venue to have a fast jet display such as a hunter, airfield boundaries aren't massive and it's in a built up area.

rdchawk wrote:But my point is that the people in the naughty field are "in the display area/danger zone" And thus in the firing line if something did happen, But because they're holding a camera it makes it ok? Is that what you're saying?

As it turns out, the people driving down the A27 were "in the display area/danger zone" on this occasion. In most air-show accidents, the pilots have very little input into where the aircraft is going to impact the ground once circumstances make that inevitable. Yes, if able they will do whatever they can to avoid what they can see in the final few seconds, but the by that stage the outcome is virtually sealed and their actions have very limited results. The Idea that they can 'chose' where to crash is a fallacy in my view.

Yes clearing the naughty field would reduce the risk to those people south of the display line, as would clearing the area around the school, and closing the M11, and clearing a 2 mile exclusion zone south/east/west of the runway. And there is still a risk that an out of control aircraft could go into the crowd, or a brake failure could cause something to go off the end of the runway onto the M11. This accident could have happened at any UK airshow. So whilst we're at it, lets clear Farnborough town for 8 days every two years.

Reducing the risk to nil is not possible, and concentrating on the naughty field isn't helpful.

airfixpilot wrote:Hi rdchawk, I agree with you on crowd lines at airshows, and fools who cross them, but this accident was outside the perimeter. One thing the news are saying is having airshows over the sea (at seasides). Any comments on this?.

The nearby annual Brighton airshow used to be performed over the sea until a Red Arrows pilot ejected and his Hawk went unsupervised into a roll over the pier and landed in the sea just off the beach, which was packed full of spectators, including me.

That show has never been hosted since.


..

I wonder if this now spells the end of crowd rear arrivals?? minimise all flying over the public.

rdchawk wrote:I wonder if this now spells the end of crowd rear arrivals?? minimise all flying over the public.

Crowd rear arrivals haven't been permitted for many, many years - I'm not certain but think it may have been outlawed in the review of safety after the 1988 Ramstein disaster. The Red Arrows did have an exemption for a while I believe, but I think that's also been revoked.

Wasn't that stopped years ago within the UK? Witnessed the Thunderbirds do exactly that at New Orleans airshow back in the 90's and thought to myself what the **** are they playing at.


The only thing I can see changing due to the tragic events of the weekend is no flying to be permitted over roads that have a certain amount of traffic flow on them weather it be a Motorway, A or B class.

Todays displays have been pushed back and back to the extent they are not displaying to the paying punters, more is done outside the airfield.
years ago lot of the flying was kept inside the airfield, yes could be bad for the crowd thou you visit knowing the risk, just like
others have said regarding motorsports, many are killed each year on and off the track. Just look at the Isle of man TT.
what will happen I guess is the weekend s tragic accident will cost insurances mega millions, so airshows in future will
be dealt with massive premium rises also the aircraft operator's, this will know doubt make shows unviable.

Malcolm wrote:

rdchawk wrote:I wonder if this now spells the end of crowd rear arrivals?? minimise all flying over the public.

Crowd rear arrivals haven't been permitted for many, many years - I'm not certain but think it may have been outlawed in the review of safety after the 1988 Ramstein disaster. The Red Arrows did have an exemption for a while I believe, but I think that's also been revoked.

It hasn't been revoked, either that or they arrived 'illegally' from crowd rear at both Duxford and RIAT this year and many years previously.