Why no Russians?

[Sheff]

This subject has come-up on FC a few times before and I notice that a similar thread has now appeared on UKAR. I was interested to read that someone has posted a direct quote from a RIAT official which actually puts a vague price tag on the cost of getting Soviet-esque aircraft to UK shows. If his quote is true, it seems that it would have cost roughly £100,000 to get a fast jet to display at RIAT. It sounds about right.

So, as I've said many, many times before, you can see how RIAT (and presumably other shows) are making choices based on finances, not practicalities. It is claimed repeatedly that it is "too difficult" to get former Soviet-type aircraft to our shows but as I've often said (and is now illustrated by the quote from RIAT I've mentioned) the only real difficulty is cost - pure and simple. The afore-mentioned quote clearly confirms that my view was (and is) correct.

I think it's important that people are aware of this situation. I see far too much praise heaped on RIAT (and Waddington to a lesser extent) on the basis that the show organisers "do the best they can" for us enthusiasts. The statement I've mentioned clearly illustrates that they do not, indeed they actively choose not to take advantage of the possibility of having Soviet-eqsue aircraft at our shows, simply because they don't want to spend the money. Clearly, it is entirely practical to charge a little bit more in order to make shows like RIAT and Waddington actually interesting again. But they don't want to. It really is that simple. Shabby.

[Macc]

It goes a bit like a see saw.
Higher entrance fee = less people.

[Sheff]

True, but it says an awful lot about the much-peddled myth that show organisers do all they can to cater for the interests of enthusiasts...

[garethbrum]

This subject has come-up on FC a few times before and I notice that a similar thread has now appeared on UKAR. I was interested to read that someone has posted a direct quote from a RIAT official which actually puts a vague price tag on the cost of getting Soviet-esque aircraft to UK shows. If his quote is true, it seems that it would have cost roughly £100,000 to get a fast jet to display at RIAT. It sounds about right.

So, as I've said many, many times before, you can see how RIAT (and presumably other shows) are making choices based on finances, not practicalities. It is claimed repeatedly that it is "too difficult" to get former Soviet-type aircraft to our shows but as I've often said (and is now illustrated by the quote from RIAT I've mentioned) the only real difficulty is cost - pure and simple. The afore-mentioned quote clearly confirms that my view was (and is) correct.

I think it's important that people are aware of this situation. I see far too much praise heaped on RIAT (and Waddington to a lesser extent) on the basis that the show organisers "do the best they can" for us enthusiasts. The statement I've mentioned clearly illustrates that they do not, indeed they actively choose not to take advantage of the possibility of having Soviet-eqsue aircraft at our shows, simply because they don't want to spend the money. Clearly, it is entirely practical to charge a little bit more in order to make shows like RIAT and Waddington actually interesting again. But they don't want to. It really is that simple. Shabby.

Sheff

I posted the quote on UKAR as it was me that went down to interview Rob Windsor for Global Aviation Resource.

Can you explain how you distinguish between financial and practical decisions?

Surely deciding not to spend a huge amount of money for little benefit (ie. it appeases a tiny % of the crowd) is a practical decision - albeit based on a financial premise? Making such decisions is NO indicator as to whether organisers are doing their best or not, it actually sounds quite sensible to me.

I love the image of airshow organisers sitting around "actively deciding" not to spend any money on anything interesting - good job that isn't true or we wouldn't have any airshows!

Cheers

Gareth

[blakey]

My 2 pence... you want the best show... you should be prepared to pay for the best hardware

Why just pay the one £100,000 christ pay £200,000 and have 2 Russians at the next show... so the charities would suffer for a year but the punters would be happy

[Pen Pusher]

My 2 pence... you want the best show... you should be prepared to pay for the best hardware

Why just pay the one £100,000 christ pay £200,000 and have 2 Russians at the next show... so the charities would suffer for a year but the punters would be happy

No. You would be happy.

The punters couldn't care less whether a Russian front line aircraft was there or not and they are who air shows are aimed at.

If you were an enthusiast and you wanted to see a Russian fighter flying, then you would make the effort to go and see one instead of waiting for one to come to you.

Brian

[Dunk]

I think we've been spoilt in the UK, especially through the nineties, but now it really does come down to cost when considering those fantastic Migs and SU's.

Everyone says enthusiasts are a small percentage, but how do you define who is and isn't an enthusiast? Anyone who likes aircraft is an enthusiast, why else do so many people attend an AIRSHOW?!!! They don't go ultimately for the funfair or to buy sheds or double glazing, they go because aircraft are flying!

Park n view brings in a hefty revenue at RIAT I imagine, without those enthusiasts paying you would lose a hefty wedge of income I imagine? So why can't they pander to the needs of those that would rip their testies off to see a fruity jet, once in a while?

[blakey]

My 2 pence... you want the best show... you should be prepared to pay for the best hardware

Why just pay the one £100,000 christ pay £200,000 and have 2 Russians at the next show... so the charities would suffer for a year but the punters would be happy

No. You would be happy.

Not me mate, ive only been to one IAT and that was in 1984 and ive no intention of going to another. So i really dont care what turns up

[Sheff]

It's an interesting subject, which is probably why I keep going back to it!

As has been said, one fundamental problem is determining precisely what the "punter" actually is - are they obsessive fanatics, are they people who have an interest in aircraft but no specific types of aircraft, are they people who just like a day out looking at flying and aeroplanes, or are they just people looking for somewhere to entertain the kids? As we all know, the vast majority of airshow-goers fall firmly into the latter categories and we all accept that shows have to cater for these people in order to make money.

But that's not what annoys me about shows like RIAT, Waddington and occasionally some other venues. It's the fact that they shamelessly claim to be catering for the interests of enthusiasts. When you take into account the very point that started this thread, it's obvious that they patently do not cater for our interests at all. It particularly annoys me when it comes to RIAT where the whole show has been developed on the premise that it's an event for the enthusiast first and foremost. Clearly, it's stopped being that short of show years ago and yet we're still expected to buy their claptrap even though they use enthusiasts to pay for park and view facilities, grandstands and heaven-knows what else. That's not catering for needs, it's exploitation. Yes, I know that nobody is forced to go but that's not my point - they milk money out of enthusiasts precisely because they know that many of us are so keen to get close to aeroplanes that we'll pay whatever it takes.

I've often said that the only reason why many of the few remaining exotic aircraft don't come to places like RIAT and Waddington is purely down to cost. The quote on UKAR serves to illustrate that this is indeed true. It's a conscious choice made by show organisers. Contrary to Gareth's optimistic view, it's clear to me that some show organisers do actively opt to exclude some interesting aircraft - simply because they don't think they're worth the money. Indeed it's not only my view - the guy from RIAT specifically says so in effect.

Okay, of course it's fine for organisers to make whatever choices they like. If they don't think spending a hefty amount of cash on some really exciting participants is worth it (presumably on the basis that less interesting aircraft are sufficiently entertaining for the majority of show-goers), then naturally it's their choice not to spend money (or raise admission fees as necessary) in this fashion. It's their show and they can do whatever they like. My gripe is that they could do us all a service and stop this annual spin-doctoring that is intended to have us believe that they're all busy falling over themselves trying to cater for our interests. It's complete rubbish and it really annoys me that people fall for this nonsense year after year. I can take a charitable view and freely accept that shows will include unusual/exotic aircraft that interest us whenever they can, but that's a long, long way from this absurd notion that they're desperately trying to attract exciting aircraft but that they cannot because of "operational circumstances" or whatever excuse they care to use. Truth is they can do more but they don't want to. Simple as that.

If nothing else, the quote on UKAR clearly illustrates that everything RIAT have said about doing so much for us enthusiasts is patently a joke. Lots of us have already realised this years ago which is why so many of us don't bother going, but you can bet that despite the quote, the vast majority of those who read it will still choose to ignore it and they'll be back at RIAT forking-out piles of dosh again next July. That's fine - if they enjoy themselves then that's great but really, wouldn't it be nice if the organisers stopped feeding us this rubbish about doing all they can for us. It just isn't true.

[viper3111]

All I can say is BRING BACK AIR FETE!!!!!
Mildenhall was a cracking show and cost £5 to walk in £15 for a car. I spent many a happy 2 weeks camping on teds field at the end of the run way. That's were I met some of my closest friends. I very rarely fork out the price for RIAT under principle, but saying that I am going there next year purely because I have given it a miss for the past umpteen years.
Im one of the strange people who doesn't go to airshows for the flying, I go for the model kits (I know ) and for close up ground pictures for building. Waddo is a nice atmosphere although I will agree that participants have been a bit lacking, but you still can't beet mildenhall with the yanks trying to sell you those addictive burgers and a 'bud' at 7 o'clock in the morning (now that was a breakfast).
I do miss the exotic aircraft but like anything we enjoy airshows will soon be gone. Ive been to so many 'last shows' at various bases so I will try to enjoy what we have whilst we have got it.

[JG71]

I think it is all down to personal choice.And i feel one persons show may not appeal to another person.I think no matter what we do these days in general in this country we pay to much in comparison to other countries.If you look at Volkel it is free.I am one for supporting our shows in this country but say in regard to RIAT even if you break it down to every nut and bolt its expensive.

I know when this was discussed before people said oh well a football match can be £100 for the day or F1 £250 for a weekend.That is your choice as it is mine to vote with my size 12's.

There is no real answer i think.

[gamecock]

If you were an enthusiast and you wanted to see a Russian fighter flying, then you would make the effort to go and see one instead of waiting for one to come to you.

Couldn't agree more. There seems to be plenty of European shows that cater superbly for the modern mil enthusiast, and they all seem to be easily accessible and cheap or even free. You may as well go and see them while you can.

[Sheff]

I agree that if you want to see interesting stuff, the only real way to do it these days is to head overseas - if you're rich enough, enthusiastic enough or adventurous enough! I think we kinda have to accept what we've got (or what's left!) here in the UK. It just annoys me that RIAT and Waddington keep feeding us this notion that they do everything they can for us when they really don't. Honesty would earn some respect I think.

As for Mildenhall, I agree that those were the great days but they're never going to come back. Operationally and financially there's no way that a good show could ever be assembled now. Worse still, most of the star aircraft have long since been retired! Those of us who were old enough are lucky to have seen what was undoubtedly the heyday of the UK show scene but it sure ain't coming back.

I just marvel at RIAT's attitude. They say that it might cost around 100K to get something like a Su-27 or whatever, but they evidently seem to think that this is a good argument not to bother. It's crazy. That equates to maybe 50p on top of the admission fee if we look at this in very broad terms. For heaven's sake, if RIAT could boast a flying display which contained a Flanker, Bear, Fulcrum, Fencer and the Russian Knights (or similar stuff) then how many more people would happily pay another fiver? I know I would and I'm sure thousands of others would too. Another fiver isn't going to seriously affect the attendance figures they currently have (if folks are prepared to pay thirty-odd quid then another fiver isn't going to raise an eyebrow) and yet it would (on the basis of their comments) provide enough additional finance to get the very aircraft we miss seeing. I just don't see any logic in their position at all. I really do think the RIAT team have (in recent years) completely lost the plot.

[Dunk]

They lost the plot a few years back when they slashed the aircraft ops team, because someone was empire building and felt threatened - allegedly!

Needs some fresh blood and some fresh eyes in DBH imho.

We are constantly told RIAT is the worlds biggest and best country fete, sorry Airshow, so how about making it so?!

Alternatively, reduce the length of the air display, reduce partipation numbers and use the extra revenue for some more exotic items?

Got to love these winter month bitchfests lmao!

[Richard B]

My 2 pence... you want the best show... you should be prepared to pay for the best hardware

Why just pay the one £100,000 christ pay £200,000 and have 2 Russians at the next show... so the charities would suffer for a year but the punters would be happy

No. You would be happy.

The punters couldn't care less whether a Russian front line aircraft was there or not and they are who air shows are aimed at.

If you were an enthusiast and you wanted to see a Russian fighter flying, then you would make the effort to go and see one instead of waiting for one to come to you.

Brian

I keep seeing people saying joe public does not give a toss what is flying.
Well i must disagree , joe public does not take the family to the cinema without looking what film is showing.
or many other events. most will view the web or other media to see what is flying before they go and spend there hard earned cash.
they do not go blind to what is on offer, simple fact .

Riat will allways be bashed. since it became a private enterprise with a large group on a very good yearly wage,
they are looking after there own intrests.
end of the day they will keep dishing out the same old acts and joe public will say we have seen that before, just lke that film at the cinema .
and i feel they will start to stop going .
the Vulcan effect as been a good savour this year and last if the truth be known.

[blakey]

When people start making lots of money out of the hobby, thats when i stop spending

Ive not put one penny towards 558 that includes paying to see it at a show and i wont go to IAT to line anyones pockets either

And Waddos had the last of my hard earnt dollar to

[roughcutter]

Perhaps it is time for RIAT to revert back to being a biannual event, as it was in the beginning?
Maybe we've had it too good for too long?
MarkL

[DeanW]

When people start making lots of money out of the hobby, thats when i stop spending

RIAT, as with any other airshow, needs to at least break even so that it can continue the following year. At least with RIAT any profit it does make goes to RAFCTE.

Perhaps it is time for RIAT to revert back to being a biannual event, as it was in the beginning?

I don't see what the point in doing that would be? We'd just see the RNLAF F16, French TBM700, USAF B52 etc. every two years. Keep it as it is - it's not struggling as an annual show and people are still going. It's the biggest, and arguably best, airshow in the world so let's make the most of it.

[RichC]

There's always an option for RIAT or elsewhere to phone up the Russians to extend their bomber patrols and accidently land at Fairford under escort.
Nice photo opportunity.
They fly around the North Sea often enough, why not ask them to enter the UK legitimately on one of those days as an airshow flypast. It will give the crews one hell of a training mission

[Blackcat1]

Septic said

"Very much along the lines I was just thinking Rich!!.... or get the QRA flight to let slip that there is free vodka at Fairford, mind you maybe not, as half the Russian Airforce would probably turn up!!!! "

Or get too pee'ed on vodka to find their own way fecking home (depends what their navaids are like, i guess!!)