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Herc fleet to be retired early as part of Defence cuts?

All discussion about the 2015 SDSR in here please.
F3
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Herc fleet to be retired early as part of Defence cuts?

Post by F3 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:30 am

Shocked to read in a fairly in depth article in the Times on Saturday that among the possible savings being considered to plug the £2 billion gap in the Defence budget is the early retirement of the RAF's Herc fleet which is the only one mentioned for the RAF. The Navy seems set to suffer most with the loss of 1,000 Marines, scrapping of the 2 amphibious assault ships, 2 Type 23 frigates and the shipboard Wildcat detachments, whilst the Army would be reduced to <70,000 troops - the smallest it has been since Wellington's day. All v. worrying yet not a mention of Defence in last week's Budget speech!

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Re: Herc fleet to be retired early as part of Defence cuts?

Post by Snoop 95 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:41 pm

Defence seems to be a target for cuts at every opportunity. Further reduction in any of the Forces is scandalous.

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Re: Herc fleet to be retired early as part of Defence cuts?

Post by reheat module » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:51 pm

Well, with the loss of Fallon, we 'inherited' a known bean-counter who viewed this position from close hand with a shrewd eye.
Keen to impress, I fear his ruthlessness, naivety and lack of experience in terms of HM Forces will simply override anything the Service Chiefs will advise.
Stand-by for EX Top Service Chiefs to scream and shout (now their pensions are safe)...
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Re: Herc fleet to be retired early as part of Defence cuts?

Post by Andy_99 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:54 am

New Defence Secretary wants to impress but with no idea of the consequences.

Yeah Scrap the Herc - Oh Burger the A400 can't be used to para drop at present - :Oops: It's tood big for some tactical uses :Oops:

Scrap some more ships - Oh Burger these 2 big here capital ships that we cost cut with have limited ASW, AEW & CAP capabilities (because we built them wrong) we've barely enough serviceable ships to provide a useful carrier group, no bother nobody would dare sink them :Oops:

Scrap the Amphibious Assault ships - The 2 carriers can fill the role - Oh Burger they don't have the floating dock facilities. Oh well we can get rid of the Marines then

Get rid of the wildcats on the ships - Oh Burger they supplied some of the ASW & the over the horizon patrol capabilities :Oops:

It's OK we're part of NATO they'll look after us :Oops: we're no longer meeting the 2% of GDP commitment for NATO, It's OK not like we're gonna upset anybody.

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the concerned
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Re: Herc fleet to be retired early as part of Defence cuts?

Post by the concerned » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:38 pm

Just asking could we afford to lose the puma fleet

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Re: Herc fleet to be retired early as part of Defence cuts?

Post by Northsky » Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:04 pm

Well we cant stop any N Korean missiles hitting us so why not surrender now. ts always been this way has it not UK armed forces making do because of politicians failures.

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Re: Herc fleet to be retired early as part of Defence cuts?

Post by Reach1985 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:58 pm

The trouble with these punative cuts is that they are so short termist - they'll ensure that the spreadsheets add up now but all that happens is that you end up with more costs over running somewhere else and lo and behold another black hole opens up somewhere else that then has to be filled - and it goes on and on and on.

The problem as i see it is that the strategic defense reviews and various other proposals and policies that are supposed to show that someone has a clue as to what is going on really don't go far enough. For many reasons we have stuck with the three (key) armed forces model (navy, army, air force) which is out dated and ineffecitent - each of the forces is competeing for the same decreasing (at least in real terms) pot of money. Each of them believes that they are the most important and that their missions are critical. This leads to infighting, lack of cohesive leadership and a total lack of a clear stategy for our armed forces - and on the front line kit that is either outdated, broken, not fit for purpose, or not even off the production line yet which leads to morale dropping. There is of course a whole host of other problems that feed into this as regards defence companies and public/private ownership of many elements of our defence force.

As a nation we need to have a cold hard look at ourselves post brexit - what is our position in the world and what does that look like in terms of a defence / foreign policy strategy based on the current instabilities in the world at large? Is what we have really fit to defend our interests both here and abroad? Is a three forces model really the right one going forward based on what future conflicts might look like? The answer is probably not - and a more agile, adaptive and integrated defence force is porbably what we need - which means that the three current armed forces would need to be subsumed into something more like the model of the US Marines (though perhaps not currently as i believe they are in a bit of a mess). What i mean by that is not so much a 'like for like' modelling of the USMC - let's be honest we're unlikey to be mounting any amphibious assults anytime soon - but more that you have one force working together for the same objective.

For me the abolition of the three forces, and their combined histories and traditions is the elephant in the room. Yes, it's fantastic to have those histories and traditions but is continuing with this model really the best option or do the powers that be need to think a bit more creativly and potentially make some tough decisions and think realistically about our nations position and posture?

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Re: Herc fleet to be retired early as part of Defence cuts?

Post by iainpeden » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:57 pm

I see your points and believe we can't be the world's policeman anymore.
However, shouldn't the MoD be the cohesive unit holding it all together and making the stratgic decisions? If (a VERY big if) that was done properly then the 3 forces would simply be 3 prongs of the same trident

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Re: Herc fleet to be retired early as part of Defence cuts?

Post by Rugbyref » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:11 pm

If we can afford to donate £40 Billion to the corrupt EU, we can afford to keep our armed forces.

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Re: Herc fleet to be retired early as part of Defence cuts?

Post by deerhunter » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:00 pm

The way things are going we won't have enough armed forces to man the cenotaph at the next Remembrance Day parade !!!
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Re: Herc fleet to be retired early as part of Defence cuts?

Post by iainpeden » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:05 pm

deerhunter wrote:The way things are going we won't have enough armed forces to man the cenotaph at the next Remembrance Day parade !!!
I was talking to a serving member of the RAF at Fairford who told me plans to celebrate the 100th anniversary of its formation had been scaled back due to insufficient manpower.

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Re: Herc fleet to be retired early as part of Defence cuts?

Post by AndrewBarclay » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:47 pm

I'm presently reading "Hunter Boys" True Tales from Pilots of the Hawker Hunter. One of the early chapters
describes how the RAF was being badly treated by successive Governments both Tory and Labour Administrations the cancellations of TSR2, 1154, and AW681 and the final straw was the cancellation of the 50th Anniversary Flypast of the RAF in 1968.

One pilot had had enough and he decided that he would make a dramatic entrance into parliamentary affairs by flying three times around the Houses of Parliament and fly through the bascule centre of Tower Bridge in his hawker hunter jet.

As the 100th anniversary approaches it could be interesting to see Tower Bridge raised in all its glory.

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Re: Herc fleet to be retired early as part of Defence cuts?

Post by Unknown74 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:34 pm

Or they could just get rid of the Tarantula?

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Re: Herc fleet to be retired early as part of Defence cuts?

Post by filmman » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:14 pm

Various factors coincided to the make the UK the biggest power ever at the time. Best navy, expanding commercial shipping, numerous colonies and the Industrial Revolution. Now the party's over but too many politicians live in the past and raise public expectations. We can just about afford 2% GDP for defence in the face of savage cuts to stop over-spending. The 2% can't cover nuclear hunter killer subs, Trident, 2 Carriers and ships, rest of the Navy, an expanding RAF, and an Army. So no Carriers. Keep Typhoon but scrap Tornado. Keep Chinook but scrap Puma. Keep A400 but scrap Hercs. No more F35s and no VTOL. No P8s. Scrap military bands, scrap The Red Arrows; it's that bad. The bottom line is there is no more money and the MOD has wasted too much for too long. SA80 rifle, Nimrod AEW then MRA4, D45 destroyer engines, boomless tanker.
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Re: Herc fleet to be retired early as part of Defence cuts?

Post by reach1 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:52 pm

Rubyroo as I person who voted to leave the E.U. I’ve been able to retire 6 years early from the railway. Nice pension nice home no worry,s and I take my holidays in Europe too, not bad for somebody which according to you has an IQ as low as the number of tornado,s left in RAF service. And the RAF have allocated funds to replace centre wing box’s on the C-4 model Herc,s think we all should wait and see what happens next spring.

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Re: Herc fleet to be retired early as part of Defence cuts?

Post by page_verify » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:23 am

If people are upset at the C-130s being retired, what'll happen when they hear about the E-3s?

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Re: Herc fleet to be retired early as part of Defence cuts?

Post by markranger » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:12 pm

Thread tidied,

Please keep to posts that reference title of the thread.

Thank you.
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Re: Herc fleet to be retired early as part of Defence cuts?

Post by TonyO » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:41 pm

page_verify wrote:If people are upset at the C-130s being retired, what'll happen when they hear about the E-3s?
Glad to hear I am not the only one hearing that!

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Re: Herc fleet to be retired early as part of Defence cuts?

Post by Andy_99 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:34 pm

Suppose some Bean counter somewhere is saying the E3's are too expensive to run

Another thing we don't really need then - I stand by previous post :Oops: Who'd have thought that the Russians might want to come a snooping.

Still at least they've ticked the making a saving box for this year, by the time the sensible people realise the capability gap the said bean counter & ministers will have retired on a golden handshake/pension & it's someone else's problem to sort.

Haven't we heard this before with MRA aircraft & various other types that I'll not name to stop a drift of the thread again.

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Re: Herc fleet to be retired early as part of Defence cuts?

Post by shackleton0 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:06 am

One or two observations:-

Scrap the foreign aid budget completely, and route this money back into defence:- I don't know why we are funding major powers such as Pakistan and India, and third world countries with corrupt regimes.

It is scandalous, when our armed forces are being savaged by consecutive governments of both main parties.

Also, a lot of these politicians seem to be deluded:-

We are no longer a great global power, and should act accordingly.

We still need a nuclear deterrent in this unstable world, but should concentrate on the concept of self defence forces, and the commitment to NATO.

Less commitment on the global stage could result in extra funds for all three services closer to home.

But lets be realistic:- General incompetence, and lack of the appropriate experience from politicians assigned to the Ministry of Defence has been (and I suspect, always will be) with us, in this country.

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