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UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two sqn

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Vulcanone
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Re: UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two

Post by Vulcanone » Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:03 pm

I Agree with Thunder.

Can we get back to the aircraft discussed in this thread and NOT Annoying MPs. :ninja:

Tim

Phoon
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Re: UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two

Post by Phoon » Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Russ wrote:Hi, Sorry if it sounds silly or I have completely missed something but its been bugging me since this whole topic began.

In the first post the The RAF currently field 192 combat aircraft, made up of 87 Tornados; 53 Tranche 1 Typhoons; and 52 Tranche 2 and Tranche 3A Typhoons, deliveries of which are ongoing.

The Tranche 1/2/3 planes I assume are all single seat and the 2 seaters are not included in this ?

I cannot seem to make the numbers of planes mentioned on here or wiki add up. 105 Typhoons mentioned above. Also mentioned among these pages is that the average Squadron has 12 planes. My thinking based on this is when we get the 2 new sqns that will account for 84 planes leaving 21 still doing what ??? (or are these 21 the 2 seaters ?)

Secondly on Wiki it mentions 53 Tranche 1 / 67 Tranche 2 and 40 tranche 3 totaling 160. Now I know Wiki isn't always 100% accurate but its normally pretty close so suprised to see wiki claiming we have 55 more than the other source.

Any clarification for either questions would be greatful, Thanks
I make it...

Tranche 1 single seats = ZJ910-ZJ943 (34 aircraft)
Tranche 1 dual seats = ZJ800-ZJ815 (16 aircraft)
Total = 50 aircraft

Tranche 2 single seats = ZJ944-ZJ950, ZK300-ZK302, ZK304-ZK354 (61 aircraft)
Tranche 2 dual seats = ZK303, ZK379-ZK383 (6 aircraft)
Total = 67 aircraft

There are no Tranche 3's in service yet - they're all still stored at Warton AFAIK awaiting various people to make decisions :whistle: .

Subtract the 2 dead ones, 3 permanently at Warton, and 4 Christmas trees and I think we're at 108 available for squadron use. 4 are down south talking penguin, so 104 in the UK. At any one time there are always 20-25% of the fleet undergoing upgrades, and/or major/minor servicing. So perhaps at best 80 available at any one time.

29 Sqn is larger than a normal squadron, so say 20 aircraft for it, and then 12 aircraft each for the 5 other front line sqns and you're at 80 aircraft (5x12 + 20). Oh forgot 41Sqn - they've got 4 too.

Releasing the 40 Tranche 3A aircraft to squadrons should be enough to form 2 more squadrons, allowing for one (or two) Christmas trees, a couple for 41Sqn and 20%-25% undergoing maintainace at any one time
Two dead ones? ZJ943 the wheels up one and which other?

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Mike
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Re: UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two

Post by Mike » Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:18 pm

I think the other one is ZJ922/QO-C which had a heavy landing at Coningsby and is Cat 4 (repairable...........just !).
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Malcolm
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Re: UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:00 pm

Mike wrote:I think the other one is ZJ922/QO-C which had a heavy landing at Coningsby and is Cat 4 (repairable...........just !).
Correct. I think that officially ZJ922 is now considered to be part of the "sustainment fleet", in which case the official figures are 1 dead and 5 Christmas trees. However, from what I was told last week, ZJ922 has been declared properly dead and is being stripped for spares before joining ZJ943 at Shawbury.

What I'm not sure about is if ZJ699/700 are considered to be real Tranche 1 aircraft, or just IPA's. Doesn't affect the number of aircraft available to the RAF though since these two have lived all their lives at Warton.

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Re: UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two

Post by Phoon » Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:26 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mike wrote:I think the other one is ZJ922/QO-C which had a heavy landing at Coningsby and is Cat 4 (repairable...........just !).
Correct. I think that officially ZJ922 is now considered to be part of the "sustainment fleet", in which case the official figures are 1 dead and 5 Christmas trees. However, from what I was told last week, ZJ922 has been declared properly dead and is being stripped for spares before joining ZJ943 at Shawbury.

What I'm not sure about is if ZJ699/700 are considered to be real Tranche 1 aircraft, or just IPA's. Doesn't affect the number of aircraft available to the RAF though since these two have lived all their lives at Warton.
I'm fairly sure both those two are development aircraft and owned by BAE and are therefore considered not within the RAF figures.

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Re: UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two

Post by lhrlima » Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:45 pm

So, in order to inject a bit of life back into this thread, if we do gain two extra Typhoon Squadrons will we see:

1) 1 current Tornado Sqn re-equipping with Typhoon and 1 new 'Air Defence' Sqn.
2) 2 current Tornado Squadrons re-equipping.
3) 2 'new' Squadrons, either for dual role or air defence.
4) 100 Sqn converting, plus one other.

Whatever happens, I guess we can expect to see a mass swap round of Airframes! Anyhow, the above are just my thoughts and I'm probably completely wrong, but it'd be nice to get some opinions. :D

Regards,
Steve.

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Re: UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two

Post by Vulcanone » Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:26 pm

I think its only a case of when. But currently the only ones that know (hopefully) the answers are the RAF. I personally can see 9 Sqn being the last Tornado Sqn and it becoming an F-35 unit. I hope 12 and 31 survive possibly also as F-35 units.

As for the Sqns to bring back as Typhoon units Well..... Well will just have to wait I guess.

Tim

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Re: UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two

Post by Razor01 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:46 pm

lhrlima wrote:So, in order to inject a bit of life back into this thread, if we do gain two extra Typhoon Squadrons will we see:

1) 1 current Tornado Sqn re-equipping with Typhoon and 1 new 'Air Defence' Sqn.
2) 2 current Tornado Squadrons re-equipping.
3) 2 'new' Squadrons, either for dual role or air defence.
4) 100 Sqn converting, plus one other.

Whatever happens, I guess we can expect to see a mass swap round of Airframes! Anyhow, the above are just my thoughts and I'm probably completely wrong, but it'd be nice to get some opinions. :D

Regards,
Steve.
I cant see 100 sqn converting to a fast jet in the foreseeable future - the operation of teh hawk is so much more cost effective for the RAF thna using fst jet like the typhoon.

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Re: UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two

Post by markranger » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:22 pm

Razor01 wrote:
lhrlima wrote:So, in order to inject a bit of life back into this thread, if we do gain two extra Typhoon Squadrons will we see:

1) 1 current Tornado Sqn re-equipping with Typhoon and 1 new 'Air Defence' Sqn.
2) 2 current Tornado Squadrons re-equipping.
3) 2 'new' Squadrons, either for dual role or air defence.
4) 100 Sqn converting, plus one other.

Whatever happens, I guess we can expect to see a mass swap round of Airframes! Anyhow, the above are just my thoughts and I'm probably completely wrong, but it'd be nice to get some opinions. :D

Regards,
Steve.
I cant see 100 sqn converting to a fast jet in the foreseeable future - the operation of teh hawk is so much more cost
effective for the RAF thna using fst jet like the typhoon.
Would love to see 100sqn become a mixed Sqn of Hawks and Typhoons.
Can understand when they are doing FAC training etc that they can simulate being a Tornado for training purpose but when it comes to them being Red Air and going up against say another Typhoon after a couple of moves the Hawk must be struggling for Energy.
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Gary
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Re: UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two

Post by Gary » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:40 pm

Vulcanone wrote:I think its only a case of when. But currently the only ones that know (hopefully) the answers are the RAF. I personally can see 9 Sqn being the last Tornado Sqn and it becoming an F-35 unit. I hope 12 and 31 survive possibly also as F-35 units.

As for the Sqns to bring back as Typhoon units Well..... Well will just have to wait I guess.

Tim
Speaking with pilots at Marham last year, the original plan was to have IX(B) as the last Tornado operator. With everything going off in the Middle East it might / will have all changed and the RAF probably doesn't know what's happening themselves :lol:

The pilots also said, any new squadron would likely come from current or recently disbanded squadrons as it's easier to bring a recently disbanded squadron back. Than bring back a squadron who's colours have been laid up. Not sure what that process actually involves? Guess that could be bad news for squadrons like 25(F), 43(F) and 111(F) that's if the new squadron are going to be air defence squadrons
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toom317
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Re: UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two

Post by toom317 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:55 pm

markranger wrote: Would love to see 100sqn become a mixed Sqn of Hawks and Typhoons.
Can understand when they are doing FAC training etc that they can simulate being a Tornado for training purpose but when it comes to them being Red Air and going up against say another Typhoon after a couple of moves the Hawk must be struggling for Energy.
Mark.
Once watched two Hawks try to mess with a Typhoon over the factory I was working at, in around 2013. They were struggling like hell to try and nail it, and it looked like the Typhoon was just toying with them.
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Malcolm
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Re: UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:50 pm

Gary wrote: The pilots also said, any new squadron would likely come from current or recently disbanded squadrons as it's easier to bring a recently disbanded squadron back. Than bring back a squadron who's colours have been laid up. Not sure what that process actually involves? Guess that could be bad news for squadrons like 25(F), 43(F) and 111(F) that's if the new squadron are going to be air defence squadrons
It's supposed to be done on seniority - which means the number of years that a squadron has been actively established. Every year that a squadron has been operational adds a year to it's seniority. However, apparently years spent as reserve squadrons don't count - which is probably bad news for 4(R), 15(R) and 56(R). So whatever squadrons are chosen, it's likely to be one of the more recently disbanded front liners.

Then there political interference and who is in charge at the MOD/RAF, meaning which squadrons did the Air Chief Marshall serve on :unsure: . 617 Sqn were well down the pecking order but have been chosen for RAF JSF #1.

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Re: UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two

Post by Gary » Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:04 pm

Yep, I know about age / seniority. I meant what process is involved in getting a squadron standard from Cranwell etc. Can't remember reading what is involved in resurrecting a dormant squadron
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Re: UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two

Post by Vulcanone » Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:18 pm

Gary is correct on that.

It is an interesting way of doing things, but they do go for the ones that have been in the most recent disbandments.

Tim

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Re: UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two

Post by mirage41 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:06 pm

Further to toom317 above, a few years ago we were listening to Typhoon66 (11Sqdn) in combat with 2 Harrier between CBY and Wyton, and on London Mill discrete.

Harrier called Fox2, and Typhoon came back direct over Holbeach to land - no overshoot or circuit etc. Pilot was probably a little "unhappy" as tower had to tell him in no uncertain terms to get his gear down for landing.

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Re: UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two

Post by Rockstar » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:33 am

RAF vacant squadrons in order of seniority are (I believe) currently as follows;

25(F)
23
43(F)
202
111(F)
22
201

Although disbanded in April 2008, 25(F) squadron is the most senior former fighter squadron ahead of 11(F), 23, 43, 74 and 111 squadrons. It was expected to be one of the new typhoon squadrons formed at Leuchars, before the 2010 SDSR announcement of the axeing of the harrier force which left both 1(F) and IV(AC) squadrons redundant. It could well be stood up as a new Typhoon squadron as it is likely the displaced Tornado GR4 units will be in line for new F-35B squadrons.

As we know the role played by a squadron can influence if it is to be stood up. For example 201 Squadron is one of the oldest British military flying units which can be traced back to the formation of No.1 squadron, RNAS at Fort Grange on 16 October 1914, being absorbed into the RAF on April 1 1918 and renumbered 201 squadron. (RAF seniority service is only counted from this date however). With the cancellation of the Nimrod MRA4 following SDSR 2010 it meant the end for a future for the squadron but now we are getting a new maritime patrol platform it is surely in a good position to be reformed with the P-8s – although that is perhaps a discussion for another thread.

In the very recent past new standards have supported the reforming of a squadron (take 99 squadron last year for example) but I am afraid I am not sure on the full protocol as Gary requested so unfortunately cannot help with this.

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Re: UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two

Post by iainpeden » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:46 am

Thoughts on UKAR that 19 will be one of the new ones - be good to see the Dolphins back.

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Re: UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two

Post by Gary » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:54 am

I think 19 Sqn were mentioned on UKAR because Squadron Prints posted a what if scheme and it morphed into them being confirmed :lol:

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Re: UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two

Post by Bluetail » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:33 am

In resurrecting dormant squadrons you also have to take into account squadrons who have a special status, these include No 617 Sqn who by time served are quite young (formed 1943), but because of their special status as "Dambusters" will be reformed as the RAFs first F-35 unit. Another unit who have special status are No 120 Sqn (a Maritime unit through and through) they were the highest scoring Submarine killers of WW2, so if the MoD follow their own rules (and that's not guaranteed) should be placed ahead of No 201 Sqn in the pecking order, if traditional Maritime units are to be reformed for the P8. The good money will probably be two operational RAF P8 Sqns being formed, and most expect No's 120 & 201 number plates to be allocated.
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Re: UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two

Post by Motley » Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:04 pm

Gary wrote:
Vulcanone wrote:I think its only a case of when. But currently the only ones that know (hopefully) the answers are the RAF. I personally can see 9 Sqn being the last Tornado Sqn and it becoming an F-35 unit. I hope 12 and 31 survive possibly also as F-35 units.

As for the Sqns to bring back as Typhoon units Well..... Well will just have to wait I guess.

Tim
Speaking with pilots at Marham last year, the original plan was to have IX(B) as the last Tornado operator. With everything going off in the Middle East it might / will have all changed and the RAF probably doesn't know what's happening themselves :lol:

The pilots also said, any new squadron would likely come from current or recently disbanded squadrons as it's easier to bring a recently disbanded squadron back. Than bring back a squadron who's colours have been laid up. Not sure what that process actually involves? Guess that could be bad news for squadrons like 25(F), 43(F) and 111(F) that's if the new squadron are going to be air defence squadrons
The last i heard with the Tornado Sqns is that there is no deicision on which one will be the first sqn to go in 2018 and which 2 will continue on till the end. IX(B) look to be in a safe place to carry on in some form as there is alot of high up officers who are ex IX(B) who are fighting for the sqn to carry on, thats what we hve been told anyways. Atm aswell 31 is the most senior Sqn out of the 3 Tornado sqns, so if they jut trasferre Tornado sqns over to new Typhoon and Lightning sqns, id say 31 and IX(B) will be 2 of the new sqns on them types

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