Red Arrows inquest starts tomorrow

[kevshore]

The inquest for Jon Egging starts tomorrow. It is a two day hearing. It will no doubt be a difficult time for the family.

http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/1 ... _tomorrow/






Kev.

[veesup]

Our thoughts are with the family and freinds.
Maybe we can mark the day with a donation to the Jon Egging trust at http://joneggingtrust.com/

[Hurn]

Live updates from the inquest can be found here: "http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/1 ... ng_inquest

[Hurn]

Interesting, they are suggesting the accident was G related with Jon becoming almost unconscious (A-LOC) after the break to land.

[veesup]

are you at the inquest

[Hurn]

No just following the Echo update feed I linked to above.

[Hurn]

Not really the time for 'I told you so' Jem despite what others may have said. I'm sure most of us would have considered G impairment as a possibility amongst other speculative theories.

Sadly at that height any near loss of conciousness is generally going to end badly, although I'm quite surprised to read that the break to land was the longest and highest g manoeuvre they pull.

[garyscott]

Final break is usually run at up to 450 kts, and can gain 7G sustained, almost to the service imposed limit on the airframe.
G wear and tear is cumulative though, after several high pulls, there is normally a rest period enforced before any further high G sorties (not high G manoeuvres alone, again, its a cumulative thing. A long sortie that gives no more than say 3G multiple times is just as demanding physically as a high tempo, short sortie with high G spikes.) Any physical impairment, like a bad back, sore neck etc, can reduce your tolerance to sustained G.
I still find it hard to believe that the Blue Angels team DO NOT fly with any sort of G clothing. . . . .

[2e1var]

Morning Summary from the link provided

For those of you joining us during the lunch time break, Steve Smith has just filed this summary of the morning's evidence.

IT is likely a Red Arrows pilot who was killed in a crash near Bournemouth Airport suffered the effects of G-Force during a routine pre-landing break of formation.

The findings of a Military Aviation Authority report, revealed for the first time this morning, said that it was most likely that Flt Lt Jon Egging suffered ALOC - Almost Loss of Consciousness - as his jet pulled out of formation in order to land at Bournemouth Airport following a display at the town's air festival on August 20, 2011.

His Hawk jet over-banked with its nose down, losing height when it should have been climbing.

The plane did level out and pull its nose up seconds before impact, indicating that Flt Lt Egging regained full consciousness, but it was too late to avoid a crash or eject.

Flt Lt Egging would have been killed on impact, a pathologist's report said.

[veesup]

Final break is usually run at up to 450 kts, and can gain 7G sustained, almost to the service imposed limit on the airframe.
G wear and tear is cumulative though, after several high pulls, there is normally a rest period enforced before any further high G sorties (not high G manoeuvres alone, again, its a cumulative thing. A long sortie that gives no more than say 3G multiple times is just as demanding physically as a high tempo, short sortie with high G spikes.) Any physical impairment, like a bad back, sore neck etc, can reduce your tolerance to sustained G.
I still find it hard to believe that the Blue Angels team DO NOT fly with any sort of G clothing. . . . .

Clearly not educated statement, this manover has a target speed of 360!!!!

[veesup]

Not really the time for 'I told you so' Jem despite what others may have said. I'm sure most of us would have considered G impairment as a possibility amongst other speculative theories.

Sadly at that height any near loss of conciousness is generally going to end badly, although I'm quite surprised to read that the break to land was the longest and highest g manoeuvre they pull.

ONLY - on that day, in that aircaft it was the longest and highest but by very minimal amount!

[garyscott]

360kts is the venue transit speed. Used during the display for some manoeuvres. Attained by firewalling the throttle and keeping airbrake out.
UP TO 450kts for vixen due to display ambient, elevation, and QFE.
Higher airspeeds required in those circumstances so that all the vertical aircraft have "enough in hand" to get over the top.

[Nikon]

Not really the time for 'I told you so' Jem despite what others may have said. I'm sure most of us would have considered G impairment as a possibility amongst other speculative theories.

Maybe you're right, however being over-sensitive and sentimental to these events until then end of time, (if not directly affected), can also become tiresome when discussion is curtailed on a public forum.

[steve149c]

Jem,

I for one will stand out and state that I think your post, both original and this one (and many others) are always thought out and posted with the greatest dignity and respect. Why people got so sensitive over the Red Arrows incidents I will not know, other pilots have made the ultimate sacrifice and don't get the same outpouring. G-lock, was muted very soon after the passing of Flt Lt Egging, and is still a pheonomenom that is not truely understood. It was a genuine and tradic accident - but the time has come to move passed sentiment and feelings and discover what went wrong and why, so that we can learn from this, and help to prevent it in the future!

Respectfully
Steve

[Nikon]

Most reasonable people in this world would, I believe, share and send thoughts and sympathies for those directly involved in any accident culminating in the loss of an individual. On an aviation based website, and when an aviator, (especially that of high esteem within the Red Arrows), is tragically lost then there will clearly be more people who somehow feel directly associated and become over-sensitive to facets of the topic, as is evident here. They of course share the passion of aviation with the lost pilot, and are in some ways believe better qualified than Joe Public to appreciate the deceased’s prowess and professionalism.

The continued over-pouring of grief from some quarters with this particular incident felt and feels (at times), more disturbing to me than any untimely speculation as to the accident root cause.

As said, we all as decent human beings send out thoughts and condolences to those immediately involved, and we all appreciate the Red Arrows as a whole and as the pinnacle of aerobatic flying, but we should also treat the emotion of grief with the some control so as to truly maintain respect. We should not over-state our grief above that of those immediately affected by becoming squeamish to the subject.

[Hurn]

Maybe you're right, however being over-sensitive and sentimental to these events until then end of time, (if not directly affected), can also become tiresome when discussion is curtailed on a public forum.

I'm not sure why you've directed that at me because I have never berated anyone from discussing the events that happened. I merely wanted this thread to be able to discuss the ongoing findings of the inquest as they happened without turning into an 'I told you so' type of thread because someone had previously argued with jem in the past over some speculation. Surely any grievances between members could be kept to PM's couldn't they?

Thanks to those that did partake in discussion though. Gary Scott, thanks for some interesting insight into the speeds and g pulled during the final break. A manoeuvre I hadn't previously thought was anywhere near as strenuous.
No doubt this was a tragic accident, but hopefully the recommendations made from the findings will help keep the pilots and the public safer in future.

Regards.

[steve149c]

John,

You are most welcome to my support, you have always had a strong and justified view (always backed up with evidence), and I love reading your posts. It's a shame that there are those others who will always take the negative side,

All the best

Steve

[Hurn]

Jem, no problem. I too hope I didn't offend you, I was just keen not to see any argument possibly ensue and take a subject off topic although I've probably helped do that anyway, lol.

Back onto the subject matter, the full MAA report is now available to download and view from here: https://www.gov.uk/government/service-i ... hawk-xx179

Regards.

[TankBuster]

Apologies if its covered elsewhere, but I just noticed this update on the BBC website...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-li ... e-25943211

TankBuster

[Zeb]

The Ministry of Defence have paid undisclosed damages to the family of Flt Lt. Sean Cunningham after admitting full liability for his tragic death.

http://www.lincolnshireecho.co.uk/Sean- ... story.html