F35 JSF for Marham and Lakenheath

[crashman]

i have just seen this, thought it might be of interest.

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/politics/de ... _1_1448024" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Crash

[romeo bravo]

"The EDP has been campaigning for Marham, which employs 5,000 people in Norfolk, to win the role as it would secure the base’s future and boost Norfolk’s economy."

But what's going to be the timescale between Tornados leaving and JSF arriving!! 5,000 is a lot of people hanging around doing 'not a lot'.......

[Paulo]

Interesting read. Marham does seem to be a very logical choice.

I wonder if Scotland gain independance, will RAF assests be moved south of the border?

[crashman]

Marham also has the BAE tornado maintance facility which i guess would be converted to JSF if they went there

[romeo bravo]

Marham also has the BAE tornado maintance facility which i guess would be converted to JSF if they went there

Could have said the same about Cottesmore and the Harrier Maintenance Facility, but that could for nothing

[Tim Holden]

As far as I understand it the government has only committed to buy enough F35's to equip one carrier. Its logical therefore that these will be for the navy, probably 800 and or 801 SQN. There are no firm orders for the RAF that I am aware of, just vague intention to buy something.

Are they intending to operate the F35 fleet like they did with the Harrier as a combined joint force? Is it intended that the whole combined fleet will be operated from Marham??

I have a nasty feeling that this government will quietly draw down the Tornado fleet without replacement and make do with a pitifully small fleet of Typhoons as our only fast jet. I have doubts whether the RAF will ever get its hands on any F35's.

[Richard B]

My view would be the F35 will be based at Coningsby, modern up to date and still progressing, Typhoons will have moved out to there respected bases, Marham being used for the Typhoon.
Just my view btw.

[Malcolm]

Coningsby is and will remain Typhoon whilst it is in service.
Marham is and will remain Tornado whilst that is in service.

There are simply too many critical civilian support jobs in the RAF now to move either of them. You can order service personel to go to Timbucktu, but the civilians will tell the MOD to Eff-off. If you attempt to terminate existing contracts at Marham/Coningsby (mostly BAe staff), and then re-hire all the staff at a new base hundreds of miles away it'll cost you mega-bucks.

The base for JSF was selected as Lossie after a MOD survey. The other candidate on the short list was St Mawgan. Bases such as Yeovilton, Cottesmore/Wittering and Marham were rejected due to environmental constraints (basically noise AIUI). St Mawgan is now closed. The only way I can see the Lossie decision being changed is if the Scots vote for independence, or if we change back (again) to the Dave-C.

I don't think the RAF will allow the F-35's to be operated by the RN. They'll squeal and cry like babies to stop it. Reverting back to Dave-B from Dave-C helps ensure that there is no re-run of the basing decision, in which the RN would no-doubt push for Yeovilton. However, I think this U turn is one of the daftest decision that the MOD have ever made. The RAF won't be able to operate Dave-A since it can't be in flight refuled by RAF tanker assets - Dave-A is boom only (or you could ask Airtanker to fit booms to the new Voyagers - that'll be cheap!!!). Hose and Droge is only Dave B and C. The best choice for any number of reasons is Dave C, for both RAF and RN.

If we were still operating Invincible class carriers, then yes, we'd need Dave-B. But we're not - the new QE carriers are the largest carriers we've ever had - twice the size of the old Ark Royal, bigger that the Charles de Gaulle, and almost as big as Nimitz. The U turn from Dave-C back to Dave-B is a bonkers decision intended to save short term cash, but it'll cost us dear in years to come. But the current crop of politician s will all be retired by the time it matters, so don't care.

Cheers
Malcolm

[romeo bravo]

There are simply too many critical civilian support jobs in the RAF now to move either of them. You can order service personel to go to Timbucktu, but the civilians will tell the MOD to Eff-off. If you attempt to terminate existing contracts at Marham/Coningsby (mostly BAe staff), and then re-hire all the staff at a new base hundreds of miles away it'll cost you mega-bucks.

Would be the first time that this, and any other previous, governments have pulled out of a platform costing the taxpayer money. And won't be the last.......

The civilians might tell the MOD to Eff-off, but its not the MOD who employs a lot of these people, they belong to the contractor (BAe, RR, etc); and who is going to say 'up yours' in these cash-strapped times; not me for one.

Staff will travel, it is surprising how many BAEs guys have switched from Harrier at Cottesmore to Tornado at Marham or Typhoon at Coningsby and are travelling daily to work. BAe will just give people an ultimatum, move or you go.

[davedubya]

As Coningsby has the FJWOEU, wouldn't it be getting at least some F-35s at some point?

[Malcolm]

There are simply too many critical civilian support jobs in the RAF now to move either of them. You can order service personel to go to Timbucktu, but the civilians will tell the MOD to Eff-off. If you attempt to terminate existing contracts at Marham/Coningsby (mostly BAe staff), and then re-hire all the staff at a new base hundreds of miles away it'll cost you mega-bucks.

Would be the first time that this, and any other previous, governments have pulled out of a platform costing the taxpayer money. And won't be the last.......

The civilians might tell the MOD to Eff-off, but its not the MOD who employs a lot of these people, they belong to the contractor (BAe, RR, etc); and who is going to say 'up yours' in these cash-strapped times; not me for one.

Staff will travel, it is surprising how many BAEs guys have switched from Harrier at Cottesmore to Tornado at Marham or Typhoon at Coningsby and are travelling daily to work. BAe will just give people an ultimatum, move or you go.

Yes and no. I'll tell you a story.

Several years ago, in a world far far away, The FAR had 6 Odanrot 3F simulators, two each at each front line base. The sims were built and maintained by a company close to Kciwtag, but staffed by FAR personel. Then some bright spark thought it would be a good idea save money by privitising sim training. After all, it's not a front line job. So all the highly experienced squadron leaders etc that were doing the training fecked off from the FAR and joined the new civilian training company - lets call them Ocres, or was is Kcocbab I forget. All these experianced occifers had got to the stage of life where they were fed up with being posted to the far flung corners of the Evil Empire, and wanted to settle down. Great, permanent jobs with a civi organisation doing the same thing as they were doing, and the same place, and for more money.

Then , a few years later the fleet of Odanrot 3F was drawn down. One of the bases was closed down, and it's sims raided for spare parts. Training was also concentrated at one of the two remaining bases - lets call it Ybsgninoc. Ocres were happy with this, because it meant they needed fewer (expensive) staff at just one location, rather that spread over 3.

Then the Air Commodores were give some shiney new jets, called Noohpyt. They decided to make the first base for these at Ybsgninoc, and to move all the old Odanrot 3F jets to the other base in a land far far away - Srahcuel. Srahcuel already had 2 simulators, so even the ground training school could be moved. What could possibly go wrong?

Well, all the (now civil) ex Squadron leaders quite liked where they were current;y living, and didn't want to up sticks and move to another country miles away where they eat small birds called "Haggis" and drink a distilled barley juice. They said, sort of, "Thank you for your kind offer of employment, but go away and stop disturbing me". And since the staff that were previously employed at Srahcuel had all been gone for several years, they either moved on to another job, or lost the skills required to do the job.

So the ground school stayed at Ybsgninoc till the last few Odanrot 3F jets were retired. Pilots had to be sent down to Ybsgninoc from Srahcuel to be taught by instructors who point blank refused to move. It doesn't take many people in critical jobs to object to make the whole ting impossible or massively expensive. Of course, if they had still been in the military, Her Maj could have quietly INSISTED that they do as they were told.

BAe have sunk MILLIONS into facilities at Coningsby to support Typhoon. Of course if you pay BAe enough money they would move it somewhere else. Trouble is, there isn't enough money, and even if there were, is that really the best use of it?

Travelling or commuting to/from Marham/Coningsby/Cotttesmore is one thing, but to/from Lossie?

Cheers
Malcolm

Oh - I may have got some of the names back to front. Memory isn't what it was

[Malcolm]

As Coningsby has the FJWOEU, wouldn't it be getting at least some F-35s at some point?

The Typhoon guys spend a lot of their time in the USA - China lake etc. It wouldn't suprise me if they do the same with F-35 and base them in the USA - Either Eglin or wherever the USMC setup their OEU. I reckon the same goes for the OCU.

[XPLUMBER]

Just to save you all from so much heart ache and so many sleepless nights, i shall tell you where the F35s will be based!










































RAF Wittering!

[lmgaylard]

Malcolm- That was a great read........

As I understand things at the moment the current plan with F35B is to base them at Lossie....
However, If when the next Chief of the defense staff gets his way, there will be a big push to revert back to F35C....It is the RAF who have pushed for the 'B' variant, as i said in an earlier post, as in the words of an ex Vacc Harrier Pilot ''the 'B' in pilot terms is easy to land, kid's stuff''. The RAF will / are argue this point so as to get all the F35B's and to leave the Navy with no front line fixed wing......
IF, we do revert back to the 'C', which is what we should have stuck with anyway, then the arguments will really start;
Who will get how many?
Where will they be based?
Who will be in overall charge?

As said above, Lossimouth was the chosen airfield to operate the 'B' mainly on the noise abaitment laws but, if Scotland gains Independance and we revert to the 'C' then the question of basing will be looked at again.
And yes, the Navy will push hard for Yeovilton.......

[Malcolm]

Malcolm- That was a great read........

As I understand things at the moment the current plan with F35B is to base them at Lossie....
However, If when the next Chief of the defense staff gets his way, there will be a big push to revert back to F35C....It is the RAF who have pushed for the 'B' variant, as i said in an earlier post, as in the words of an ex Vacc Harrier Pilot ''the 'B' in pilot terms is easy to land, kid's stuff''. The RAF will / are argue this point so as to get all the F35B's and to leave the Navy with no front line fixed wing......
IF, we do revert back to the 'C', which is what we should have stuck with anyway, then the arguments will really start;
Who will get how many?
Where will they be based?
Who will be in overall charge?

As said above, Lossimouth was the chosen airfield to operate the 'B' mainly on the noise abaitment laws but, if Scotland gains Independance and we revert to the 'C' then the question of basing will be looked at again.
And yes, the Navy will push hard for Yeovilton.......

Yep. but if we're correct and it's the RAF being stubborn in trying to keep the RN out of fixed wing aviation, then surely they're cutting their nose off to spite their face. The C is going to be a far more capable jet, produced in far greater numbers for the USN. Greater range, more payload, less complicated and I suspect safer and more reliable. And the B - safer to land on an aircraft carrier? Is that it?

And did you know that the B will be the first jet that can eject the pilot without ANY pilot intervention. Yep, Dave B can spit the pilot out - some woud say spit it's dummy out :-) The reason is that if the lift fan fails in the hover, the thrust from the rear vectored jet will tip the tail end up so quickly that the pilot wouldn't have the reactions to eject in time before the plane became inverted. And it gets messy if the pilot ejects while inverted

[Forestfan]

Surely it's not the case of the RAF pushing for the B or the RN wanting the C. The decision was in favour of the B due to the cost of reconfiguring the QE class for CATOBAR ops. Which although touted in the early days as being possible without redesign and financially straightforward, has like every other defence project turned out to increase costs prohibitively (by upwards of a billion quid in this case allegedly).

"My view would be the F35 will be based at Coningsby, modern up to date and still progressing".
No offence mate, which modern and up-to-date Coningsby would that be then? Have a look at any non-BAES building

I think Tim has hit the nail pretty well where it's most effective!

[RichC]

I don't think the RAF will allow the F-35's to be operated by the RN. They'll squeal and cry like babies to stop it.
Cheers
Malcolm

Just like they did when the AAC wanted UH60M instead of the Wildcat and they kicked up stink saying the AAC shouldn't operate an SH asset....

Anyway, it seems the UK Government didn't look much into the fact that the USN were up for helping the UK in converting the carriers to take the -C- and stating clearly it wouldn't cost half as much as what the UK MoD were spouting out of their gobs to do so. But yet just weeks after the US announcement, the decision was changed (again).

Modifying the carriers for CATOBAR should have been the common sense solution, cost or not. If the F35 programmed failed dramatically, then as the carriers would be CATOBAR anyway, we could have gone straight ahead and ordered off the shelf Cat/Trap aircraft such as the Rafale or Hornet. As it stands now, if anything does go manboobs! up with the F-35B then we have a carrier that can only operate STOVL jets and nothing else. If the F35B programme stalls due to unforeseen problems then what we going to do?

In my opinion, (mine only), we should have gone for a two tier programme. F-35C for the RAF, F-35B for the RN with the Carriers constructed to operate both.
Don't forget, carriers don't need a ski-ramp to operate STOVL, the US Wasp class for example operates Harriers perfectly without one. Having the carrier CAT equipped but operating both types would be beneficial to the RAF and RN and other nations incase of the need to use ours and vice versa.

As for Yeovilton, what are the locals views of the noise generated by the F35B compared to the Harriers flying non stop throughout the week? A base that has previously operated perhaps the loudest jet in the RAF/RN inventory you would have thought would be first choice for its replacement. And the locals would support such a thing as they did with Harrier.

[Malcolm]

Surely it's not the case of the RAF pushing for the B or the RN wanting the C. The decision was in favour of the B due to the cost of reconfiguring the QE class for CATOBAR ops. Which although touted in the early days as being possible without redesign and financially straightforward, has like every other defence project turned out to increase costs prohibitively (by upwards of a billion quid in this case allegedly).!

Yes, that was the conclusion i came to in my head. I don't want to believe the RAF really want the B - I just can't see the logic in it.

I think it's all down to cash and when it needs to be spent. Reports were that BAe/Thales wanted around £2bn to re-engineer the QE carriers to CATOBAR. That's £2bn that needs to be spent now - or at least in the next year or two. Definatly in this parliament. The decision on the jets is longer term - we're not intending to order anything till 2018-20ish, with an in service date of 2022-2025 ish. So either in the next parliament or the one after.

Therefore the money for the aircraft doesn't have to be found for another one or two parliaments, whereas the CATOBAR mods would need paying for now - and we ain't got no money. Whoever allowed the requirement for CATOBAR to be a simple and inexpensive addition to be deleted from the spec want's shooting. I was horrified when I saw the model QE2 in the Thales display at Yeovilton airday. It has a ski-jump!!

I think Tim has hit the nail pretty well where it's most effective!

Sadly, I also fear Tim is correct. There is a real danger of us cancelling our initial F-35 buy, either after the next election (2015) or the one after (2020). That would also mean the end of the QE2 carriers, at least as fixed wing capable. Once they're gone, I expect the RAF to start pushing for F-35C again.

[Malcolm]

As for Yeovilton, what are the locals views of the noise generated by the F35B compared to the Harriers flying non stop throughout the week? A base that has previously operated perhaps the loudest jet in the RAF/RN inventory you would have thought would be first choice for its replacement. And the locals would support such a thing as they did with Harrier.

Well, the local spotters would love it obviously. But I'm not so sure about the local residents.

Yeovilton has all sorts of noise abaitment issues - remember the fuss when they wouldn't stay open after 10pm for the USN carrier last year? Also, the Harriers left in 2005. The JSF is unlikely to arrive before 2020. So the locals will have got used to 15 years of (relative) quiet. I doubt the NIMBY's would react well to noisy neibours moving back in.

[Tronk 11]

I hope we get the F-35 in the present climate. One MAJOR problem with the F-35 is the noise it makes. I've heard they will want to base them near the coast as it will affect less people & not upset the locals. The US have done enviromental checks & this was noted as a problem. Time will tell.