FighterControl

If anyone with a very clever pocket knife knocks on your door if you read this. Don't blame me!

Here's an apparently leaked confidential Swiss report assessing the capabilities of the Rafale, Eurofighter and Gripen as candidate aircraft - with the SAF Hornets used a baseline for good measure.

http://www.scribd.com/Avtips/d/81390363 ... the-Rafale" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In short - as we already know - they really, really like the Rafale. Seems to be systems integration and strike capability that completely swings it.

In part 2, there's some analysis of upgrades including new optronic sensors and the proposed Dassault terrain-following cuckoo altimeter which pops out a two-tone warning if you fly too low.....

(All via @AVtips )

Interesting........ but very unsurprising regarding the Rafale. It is and always was in my opinion the better out of the three. France was on with a winner when they developed the Rafale.
Other that the terms of those outlined above in the report, it darn looks good too.

There's a better report on the SF TV "Tagesschau" (News) channel - in German but easily understood and with photos.
Seems the Rafale is better than the Eurofighter so perhaps the Indians are right to buy the former
This URL gets you to yesterday's report:

http://www.videoportal.sf.tv/video?id=5 ... 3e92b6273e" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Loads more if you type "Gripen" into the "suchen" search box.

Obviously, BAE have a copy of this document and maybe a similar one from the Indians. What do you think they can do to overcome the Rafaels supposed superiority. Will they upgrade systems or design better systems to bring it on parr or surpass its competitor.

If Bae are so actively pushing the aircraft for sale then in my opinion these improvements would be a must, otherwise the aircraft would become unsaleable and all the hard work from the partner countries and th uk would have been a waste of time and money.

Rob

Well well well, imagine if a few years ago somebody had the balls to spend money to get the aircraft to how we know it should/ could be!

I very much doubt that this report was intended for the eyes of anyone at BAe, Eurofighter, Saab or Dassault. It looks to me to be the results of the Swiss airforce's own flight test trials, with some attempt to incorporate enhancements which the manufacturers say would be included.

My guess would be that this has been leaked by someone in the Swiss AF who is unhappy that their evaluation has been completely ignored by their politicians, basically on the grounds of cost (AIUI). They've gone public hoping that the Swiss people can get their politicians to change their minds. Wouldn't surprise me if a senior Swiss Air Force Officer "resigns" quite soon :-)

As for BAe/Eurofighter improvements - Hardly anything happens without a government contract and funding in place. BAe don't just wake up one morning and say "we're going to spend our own money improving XYZ and we hope that the MOD will then buy it" . What happens is they draw up a proposal, present it to MOD, and then try to get MOD to fund it. If MOD have run out of money, then that's it, no improvments. This is also why the Indian order is/was so important - it was basically going to fund additional upgrades planned for Tranche 3.

Malcolm wrote:
As for BAe/Eurofighter improvements - Hardly anything happens without a government contract and funding in place. BAe don't just wake up one morning and say "we're going to spend our own money improving XYZ and we hope that the MOD will then buy it" . What happens is they draw up a proposal, present it to MOD, and then try to get MOD to fund it. If MOD have run out of money, then that's it, no improvments. This is also why the Indian order is/was so important - it was basically going to fund additional upgrades planned for Tranche 3.

Agreed.

Typhoon will likely grow into a first class multi-role fighter if there is sufficient demand from its customers - and the more customers it has, the more likely and faster this is to happen - and vice versa.

hertsman

I'm in two minds what to think to be honest.
I feel that without BAE's name in the programme, the Eurofighter would probably fair better. Look what happens, the French pull out of a "Euro" Fighter programme and go it alone and are currently the favourites to win multi-billion dollar deals with the aircraft they went alone with against the aircraft they were originally going to be part of.
As usual, Dassault fair better.

I think BAE has dug a pit with a reputation they have and no one wants to bother with it. Like i said in another thread. BAE needs to get out of the fast jet sector and concentrate on other things they are actually making money out of like the Ground vehicles (Defence) in the USA and Middle East.

One thing to point out is that Germany were the face off for the Swiss bid, not BAe and it was a German Typhoon used for the fly off's (which failed to make two sorties due to mechanical issues). From what I've heard however the only thing the Typhoon actually "won" was the noise test at Merigien. That because it could take-off with a representative war-load without full afterburner.

Like the Tornado, Typhoon is part of a collaborative project and therefore 'designed by committee', with all the attendant compromises, technical and political, that such a project brings.

It took Tornado until the mid to late 90's to evolve into the highly capable platform is is today,and I guess the same is true of most every modern weapon: it takes time and operational use to get it right. Let's hope Typhoon gets the funding to kick on.

Ironically, the French ducked out of the Euro-fighter as they needed a carrier variant when no one else did. If only we'd known then what we know now.

Also, an item from Flightglobal from a couple of years back on test-flying Rafale. Quite complimentary as you will see.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... le-334383/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

hertsman

To sum it up - the joint Tornado and Typhoon projects, as Hertsman says, were 'designed by commitee', and by this they never really hit the deck running, everything was a compromise.

However I believe that the Typhoon has developed to a better platform now - the Swiss report is dated 2008. When I believe (unless I'm confused) - that in 2008 we were still flying F2's which didn't have the FLIR and the capability of the FGR4. So the question is now - would the report come out the same if it was a FGR4 vs Rafale?

Also DefenceNews states that Rafale was running in the competition at 25% cheaper than the Typhoon, which for the plane itself which is on par with the Typhoon, is a big nodding point.

RichC wrote:Also DefenceNews states that Rafale was running in the competition at 25% cheaper than the Typhoon, which for the plane itself which is on par with the Typhoon, is a big nodding point.

I saw that claim too and was unsure what to make of it. If it can be taken at face value, then with two broadly comparable options, one 25% cheaper, it's the kind of 'no-brainer' decision that even politicians can make. We'd all do the same if making a personal purchase.

What was not so clear, is how the 25% was arrived at. Is it in upfront capital costs or lifetime operation costs, and work-sharing arrangements? If the former it's a straight shoot-out; if either of the latter then it can depend upon the assumptions behind the calculations. Frankly my initial reaction was that it did not ring true.

Who leaked this information and why? As far as I know, this was not an official news release. It's the sort of difference that says to the losers that you've made your mind up and anyway the cost differential is so great that it's not worth the effort - but it may not be true of course. My opinion is that this is now a dead horse as far as Eurofighter is concerned. The Indians prefer Rafale, and I doubt there is anything Cassidian could now do to change their minds absent an enormous discount which could make the contract a hollow victory. There is also a potential resentment from the purchaser that you were prepared to overcharge them in the first place: if you can do it cheaper now, why couldn't you do it in the first place? Perhaps you weren't trying hard enough?

Or perhaps the French determined they had to win the business at any cost to keep Rafale afloat, and took it at a short-term loss for a long-term gain with potential repeat orders, support contracts, weapons sales and so on. They had already admitted that without exports, the production line would have to close once they had completed their own order.

Intriguing stuff, to which we are only ever likely to be able to guess the answers for now.

hertsman

Meanwhile:-

Swiss Minister did know about the Gripen criticism
http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... |FRONTPAGE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And the UK desperate to win back the Rafale decision
http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... r-Decision" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RichC wrote:And the UK desperate to win back the Rafale decision
http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... r-Decision" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How about - "You either buy the Typhoon Mr Minister, or we withdraw all of our 'aid' ".

I don't think India really needs it. They can spend "Billions" on nuclear weapons, "Billions" on Fighter programmes and even "Billions" on their new carrier programme.
Why on earth do they need aid in the first place.... oh , they forget to feed their own people and keep them all housed... forgot.

The latest from the Swiss Govt is that the testing was carried out on the Gripen C/D models whereas the upgraded E/F has been ordered based on the spec of the prototype which is to be evaluated in May. A "former Chief Test pilot" was brought out to sing the praises of the Gripen on the national news network. Andrew Smith