FighterControl

I hear Dassault have won the contract for new generation aircraft for India beating a rival bid from Eurofighter.

The deal is 125 Rafales for an original tender price of $10bn..... The Rafales were cheaper (but costs are going north!)

The tender first went out in 2007 but the formal competition didn't last long - the Indian government opened the bidding process in November.

Guess there should be some more info about this later on......

F-35 anyone?

From Associated Press

Indian air force to buy 126 Rafale fighter jets

By NIRMALA GEORGE, Associated Press – 14 minutes ago

NEW DELHI (AP) — India has decided to buy 126 French-made Rafale combat aircraft for the Indian air force, clinching a massive $11 billion defense deal, a top government official said Tuesday.

The French aviation company Dassault snapped up the $11 billion deal after emerging with the lowest bid in a two-way competition against the Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft, the official said.

The official was speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to reporters about the sensitive defense deal.

Planes from Boeing Co. and Lockheed Martin of the United States and from Russian and Swedish makers were dropped from consideration earlier.

The deal is the 1st foreign deal for Dassault's fighter jets.

India, the world's biggest arms importer, is being wooed by major international arms manufacturers as it replaces its obsolete Soviet-era weapons.

Eighteen fighter aircraft will be delivered in "fly away" condition within 36 months and the remaining 108 are to be built by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. through technology transfers.

Defense ministry experts were still fine-tuning pricing details, including the cost of on-board weaponry and royalties for producing the aircraft in India.

It was my understanding that as of Last Tuesday no formal decision was to be made until the end of March.

I Personally thought this was Eurofighters to Loose! But will be nice to see The Rafale in Export service!

Certainly has more substance than previous "Official Announcements"

http://www.romandie.com/news/n/_Inde_Pa ... 121401.asp
Bloomberg
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-3 ... st-2-.html

Wes..

Surely this is the end of the road for Typhoon. Once the RAF deliveries are done its got to be the end for Warton too. This country is finished. Bet we buy some crappy Rafales for the Royal Navy too. Churchill must he turning in his grave.

I don't think it's the end of the Typhoon - but yes I fear Warton may be gravely at risk :-( With the future going to the F35 (cough, cough F-18) and nothing else on the drawing board, unless the Tucano replacement gets built under license. The UK is going to loss alot of expertise. Trials from Warton will probably relocate to MoD Boscombe Down....it's such a shame.

Back on Topic - the Rafale is not a bad bit of kit. It was built for a job, which it is very good at. Unfortunately the Typhoon had to be adapted for the frond attack after the demise of the Harrier (Thanks Blair & Brown) for that one.

The Rafale is a good bit of kit - and I welcome getting into bed with the French agin - the last Anglo French jet - the Jaguar is still my favourite plane of all time. Yes the Indians have probably gone with a good choice for what they want!

steve149c wrote:Unfortunately the Typhoon had to be adapted for the frond attack after the demise of the Harrier (Thanks Blair & Brown) for that one.

That had nothing to do with the demise of the Harrier, Steve. The Typhoon in RAF service was always intended to have a multi-role capability. It was the planned intention to be deployable for Afghanistan that resulted in the 2008 work-up and declaration of multi-role capability.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/newsweather/index ... B67F0F0AC3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov. ... ckrole.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Personally I blame Clarkson, it's all his fault for upsetting the Indians!

Thanks T_J, I never knew that it was always on the boards for the Typhoon!!

Interesting that the UAE interest in the jet dropped on pricing, where as the India deal with its volume and offset manufacturing obviously sealed the ticket.

Its not about jet capability really, its about who can broker a better deal.

Good deal for Dassault, who can now keep its work force and invest the 10 billion on a new project etc.

steve149c wrote:Thanks T_J, I never knew that it was always on the boards for the Typhoon!!

No problem, Steve.

There's still some hard negotiations to be concluded with the Indians before ink hits paper, and the French have a recent history of messing this bit up (Brazil, UAE). After getting through manufacturing negotiations and then final pricing, the whole thing goes to the Finance ministry, then lastly the Indian cabinet for actual sign-off.

While this doesn't mean the EF stands much chance of recovering now, it does mean the door is not yet closed on the whole thing being deferred, re-bid or cancelled entirely. It is a very costly deal that could yet fall prey to a cheaper deal from Russia, or, perversely, an even a more expensive one from the US if the Americans can get over technology transfer issues.

But the Rafale looks to be a very good bit of kit, and I would not be heart-broken to hear that it was to be acquired for the Navy carriers.

As to long term fighter production in the UK, well that's a tough one. Our equipment requirements are way too small to make go-it-alone projects anything more than a pipe dream. If you aren't manufacturing in industrial quantities, you are rolling a stone uphill I'm afraid. Collaborative projects are the only real option, messy and unsatisfactory as they are.

But collaborating on what? EF 5th generation? Rafale 5th generation? Taranis/Neuron development? Carrier- capable, strike UAV? A10 replacement/Light CAS? (Could be the lowest cost and risk option with real export potential from developing countries). But Europe is in a financial mess worse than the UK so I don't hear many calls for such projects at the moment.

It's possible that the UK's best bet is not combat aircraft manufacturing at all, but knowledge and skills based design and manufacture of specialist electronic elements and components to equip combat fighters, missiles, UAV's, ships, surveillance and sensor systems and the like. This is not an empty sector, the Israeli's are specialists in these types of systems for example, so you have to be world-class to stand a chance. 'Very good' won't be good enough.

hertsman

Does anyone else feel a little let down and embarassed as correct me if i`m wrong, but does the uk government still send plenty of cash aid to the "developing Indians" on a regular basis ?

hammo wrote:Does anyone else feel a little let down and embarassed as correct me if i`m wrong, but does the uk government still send plenty of cash aid to the "developing Indians" on a regular basis ?

and endless ads for this http://www.smiletrainindia.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ,what an absolute disgrace the indian government are.

hammo wrote:Does anyone else feel a little let down and embarassed as correct me if i`m wrong, but does the uk government still send plenty of cash aid to the "developing Indians" on a regular basis ?

Yup, 1 billion quid over the next four years! I wonder if France supports India financially?

chrisfg1 wrote: I wonder if France supports India financially?

Well, I guess Dassault will have done so even if the French government did not. It may just be that the aid in this case was very specifically targeted rather than contributing to a general fund.

hertsman

To be fair it looked the obvious choice but i can see them doing a deal to off load tne mirage 2000's and possible buy naval variants as well as charles de'gualle carrier leaving the french to buy brtian's second carrier

Why don't the four eurofighter partner's pull there finger out and order the tranch 3 eurofighters but make them 2 seeters with conformal fuel tanks and make them like the f-18 growlers which would enable us to replace recon tornados which struggle at high alttitude and can't self escort

Neither of the four Euro partners have any money