Nimrods!

[Sheff]

Anyone have any news on the final weeks of Nimrod ops as yet?

Any clues as to where the airframes will be retired to and when?

Also, any news on the aircraft remaining with 51 Squadron?

[Vulcanone]

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[Sheff]

Hope you're right, although I'm sure you'd agree that it's more than likely that when the Kinloss Wing has gone, there will be little appetite for supporting a couple of aircraft in splendid isolation at Waddington, whether they be necessary or otherwise? But then there's a similar fear that the OSD for the Tornado F3 seems a very long way off when there must be a growing temptation to dispose of the remaining aircraft now.

Isn't it great how our defence needs seem to be clinging to week-by-week decisions?!

[Vulcanone]

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[mrlongbow]

If they had any sense (of which they don`t) the Rivet Joint would be dropped. The most capable aircraft is the one about to be put to bed...forever. Although Rivet Joint is still on the cards along with an upgrade of the remaining Nimrod airframes to a new R.1 standard if you like. Problem with that is BAE are cutting back on staff and closing somewhere(forget the name!) so if we wanted more Nimrods then we need to make that decision right now really. Still plenty of Nimrod airframes to upgrade if we want, we could even have a few more MRA4`s.

But we will get the slightly less capable Rivet Joint, unless we can get JUST the airframes and not much else and plonk our own stuff in there. That is the third option on the cards, just airframes and not something already kitted out.
Why do you think the Americans always ask for a Nimrod or two in most conflicts, it offers things their Rivet`s don`t.

Or, god forbid, we will just replace everything with a giant Nimrod sized UAV! Or the waste of money that is the BAE Mantis UAV.

[Sheff]

As far as I know we're still expecting the Rivets and I don't think there's even the slightest hint of upgrading the Nimrods. Think everyone knows it's not about capability any more, it's about saving money. As I was intimating earlier, I'd be surprised if the remaining Nimrods survive until next Christmas!

[mrlongbow]

From what i have heard those Nimrods won`t be surviving until next xmas. Although various areas (and rightly so) are trying to keep at least 1-2 for the sole purpose of search and rescue during this "capabilitygap" until the MRA4 comes online.
Nimrod was doing search and rescue over the xmas holiday looking for a sunk/lost yacht i believe.

But i don`t quite think the government will go in for that, if it`s going, it`s ALL going!

[RichC]

mrlongbow.

A snooping aircraft is only as good as the suite it has fitted inside it.
As far as i am aware the Nimrod R1 has a similar fit to the Rivet Joints apart from a few systems but the Rivet Joints have a far more versatile set of systems to enable to do a lot more things (as far as i know).
Plus wasn't the RAF examples of the Rivet Joints to have the same suite as the Nimrod inside it as well as the same fit as the USA models? Making the RAF Rivet Joints probably the most capable snooper in the world.

Also, it's more fuel efficient than the Nimrod R1 and more spacey than the Nimrod R1.

So, overall a better aircraft even though it too, is getting on a bit (airframe age wise).

With the more efficient CFM engines it is certainly a much better upgrade than the Nimrod R1 which is noisy, dirty and smaller.

Stick a fuel probe on the front of the RAF Rivet Joint and off you go..... an excellent larger platform with more space to fit more elint, sigint, comint suites inside from L3 Communications.

The Nimrod is a great aircraft, but let it go. It's old, noisy, smokey, inefficient, falling to bits, no spares, unsafe according to reports and always going unserviceable.

If our MRA4's had the L3 fit the Rivet Joints has (and Nimrod R1s) then they would probably be the most advanced aircraft in the world. They already have double the computing power of the B-2A Spirit for their systems. It's just a pity the MoD are short sighted as look what they could have developed with the Nimrod MRA4....

1. Maritime Patrol and SAR platform
2. Complete ISTAR platform
3. ELINT/COMINT/SIGINT platform
4. Communications relay/ Command and Control
5. Long Range Heavy Bomber utilising the large bomb bay and hard points.
It could be in Afghanistan doing the ISTAR and Bombing/CAS role at the same time. No need for external/independent CAS aircraft like the GR4 or Harrier to be called in. It will be working a similar role to the USAF B-1Bs which are actually being used for Close Air Support, orbiting the battlefield for hours and hours with their SNIPER pod and loads of bombs able to stay on station for ages supporting an assault and do its own targetting.
A Nimrod fitted with an ISTAR Ball Turret (Like the MR2s have now) and a hardpoint with a LITENING III or SNIPER Pod on it together with countermeasures and bomb bay full of Paveway IV's would be an extremely versatile platform and give us back a strategic bombing platform. Something we lack and need.

But with the short amount of airframes which have gone down again in the latest government cuts we can't do naff all....

The Nimrod MR2 already provides battlefield surveillance and ISTAR and communications, command and control duties as well as snooping communications of the Taliban. Give the MRA4 that job together with arming it to the teeth and look what we have, a more advanced (computer wise) aircraft than the B2A Spirit and probably just as big bomb load.
Look how many paveway IV slimline bombs you could fit in the bomb bay of a Nimrod if it was worked on in the correct way.

[Vulcanone]

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[ColintheCaterpillar]

Plus wasn't the RAF examples of the Rivet Joints to have the same suite as the Nimrod inside it as well as the same fit as the USA models? Making the RAF Rivet Joints probably the most capable snooper in the world.

Also, it's more fuel efficient than the Nimrod R1 and more spacey than the Nimrod R1.

So, overall a better aircraft even though it too, is getting on a bit (airframe age wise).

With the more efficient CFM engines it is certainly a much better upgrade than the Nimrod R1 which is noisy, dirty and smaller.

Stick a fuel probe on the front of the RAF Rivet Joint and off you go..... an excellent larger platform with more space to fit more elint, sigint, comint suites inside from L3 Communications.

It'll be a useful place to send some of the E-3D mates who may well be looking for alternative employment in the near future.

[Sheff]

Think it's generally accepted that the Rivets will be a retrograde step but this is all about saving money as usual, so the Nimrod seems to be the current victim-du-jour, despite the absolute folly of retiring it so prematurely.

As for noise, well I'll certainly miss the sound of the ol' Nimrod when it's gone. I used to spend my holidays next to St.Mawgan's runway so the sound of four Speys (particularly when the engines are throttled back... ahh that lovely whine and whistle) is something I'll always remember with fondness. I'll be lurking at Waddington for a few "fixes" before they go hopefully - somehow the MRA4 just will not be quite the same! I used to love watching the camp site dwellers at St.Mawgan who arrived at the weekend then at about 8am on the Monday there would be a God-awful roar from the next field (and a cloud of brown smoke) and a Nimrod would suddenly rear up into the sky - all the tents and caravans opening up, wondering what the hell was going on. Never failed to amuse!

[RichC]

Razor,

Having lived inside the circuit pattern for Waddo for a couple of years i can say the R.1s are not that loud (Well maybe a little bit noisy) on Take off but no worse than a VC10 or the Vulcan..

TS

With the VC-10 being the loudest jet transport in NATO at the moment, the Nimrod isn't far behind in noise. Had these over my house all the time when they were based at St Mawgan and heard them coming a mile off...
It certainly is a lot noisier than a CFM powered aircraft and with the fanny annies around about noise complaints nowadays i'm surprised the Nimrod, VC-10 and other oldies haven't been banned from operating without some kind of hush kits.
I'm sure i read somewhere the VC-10 was limited but not sure where due to noise.

Of course, the best option would be to scrap the very old Nimrods, scrap the idea of the old RC135 and go with a new airframe in the size of perhaps the P-8A Poseidon.
You will probably find that this might be the USAF's new platform in the future. Commonality between the USAF and USN and both doing the MARPAT and Surveillance roles.

I started a thread on Pprune about the Nimrod MRA4 being used as a strategic platform and it's come up with some interesting reading.

[Sheff]

I still wouldn't be surprised if the MRA4 finally ends-up carrying an ALCM of some sort, fitted with a British nuclear warhead. Not quite as flexible as Trident but infinitely cheaper. The idea was first mentioned years ago and I still think it's far from impossible. Think the real sticking point would be the Navy - if they've already lost their carriers and fixed-wing aircraft, can you imagine their horror at the prospect of losing the IND role too?!

[mrlongbow]

It is a viable idea for the Nimrod to carry some nuclear tipped missiles. It is wired to be able to carry storm shadow anyway (doesn`t take much to re-arm this with a nuclear warhead) and a good selection of other weapons such as Harpoon, Stingray, Maverick,Asraam and the usual torpedos etc. It has always had this sort of ability in it`s locker, as i am sure most of you are aware.

But as some folk have said, it is all money and of course the Royal Navy wouldn`t be happy!

[T_J]

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... -deal.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

'UK set to seal Nimrod replacement deal

By Craig Hoyle

The UK Ministry of Defence will sign a contract within the next few weeks to replace its British Aerospace Nimrod R1 electronic intelligence aircraft, having deemed the capability an essential element of its future military equipment inventory.

Once finalised, the deal will advance the planned acquisition of three stored Boeing RC-135 Rivet Joint airframes from the US government. These will be modified for operational use by L-3 Communications Integrated Systems in the USA.

Confirming that a previous proposal to modify BAE Systems' three development examples of the Royal Air Force's new-generation Nimrod MRA4 maritime patrol and surveillance aircraft has been rejected, a senior military source says the Rivet Joint contract will be signed "within weeks".

"We have the approvals, and we have an agreement. We just don't have a contract yet," the source adds.

Long-term activities with the RAF's three Nimrod R1s had appeared to be at risk following the MoD's surprise move in December to accelerate the retirement of its remaining Nimrod MR2 maritime patrol aircraft. Its last Kinloss-based MR2s will stop flying by 31 March, a year sooner than previously planned, and two years before the last of nine replacement MRA4s will be handed over.

The military source says operations with the R1 will be safeguarded until the new Rivet Joint assets become available, partially by using cost savings generated by the MR2 fleet retirement. "There will be no capability gap," the source adds.'

TJ

[reheat module]

Oh Ideal !
Immediately in the wake of the Haddon-Cave report citing the woeful management of the Nimrod Safety Case and the tragic loss of life aboard XV230 (RIP guys), the Service will now be looking for someone to manage a safety case for a platform that is much older, and an aged frame beyond that which it is replacing!!!
Count me out.

[HighlandSniper]

Utter madness!

[ColintheCaterpillar]

.
I'm sure i read somewhere the VC-10 was limited but not sure where due to noise.

AFAIK, certainly at some German airports, at night.

[mrlongbow]

Well there we have it!

They will spend more time in maintenance than in the air. These airframes need lots of love and care, more than the Nimrod. Would like to know what engines are equiping these aircraft, will it be the origional or an upgrade?

[HighlandSniper]

Why not use the Nimrod airframes chopped from the MRA.4 programme, makes much more sense than buying prehistoric B.707-based airframes which are older than the original R.1s ... ... ...



... ... ... sorry, that would involve a sensible decision, something we have no hope of under the current leadership.