Laim Fox to announce today.....

[Hunter]

Good point Thunder! I'd completely forgotten that 14 have gone - and so had those from where I'd heard what I posted!

ChrisGlobe: I know GR4 depth maintenance is at Marham, but don't forget it was originally intended to be at Lossiemouth. Indeed, the structure still exists - behind 15's ramp. As I understand it from some serving personnel this expensive facility has been effectively empty since it was completed. It certainly has not been used for its intended purpose. And if it's true about F-35s being based at Lossiemouth what happens to Marham when the GR4 goes out of service in 2020 or 2025?

Considering the reduction in UK defence forces and the RAF in particular we could soon find ourselves in a situation where the USAF F-15s at RAF Lakenheath out-number the number of operational fast jets in the UK...

Deviating from the subject of this thread, it's interesting to note that even official RAF station websites are guilty of misinformation, albeit on a minor scale. Note the number of stations who claim they are the busiest and largest fast jet station in the RAF/UK! Be interesting to know which really is - on the basis of number of movements per year per aircraft based at the particular station (i.e. ignoring visitors).

[ArabJazzie]

Sorry Geoff but i fail to see why the above warrants Leuchars to stay open. Any terrorist attack(which I take that is what your basing your views on) are very unlikely to come from the air. If there was ever such an incident it would happen in one of two ways.1/ Aircraft taking off from Edinburgh/ Glasgow etc and then being hijacked which is exactly the same scenario as 9/11, and just like 9/11 the attack would be over before any Typhoon could get airborne to intercept. or 2/ An aircraft entering UK airspace which has already been hijacked, which would be tracked and intercepted way before it reached our shores. Any likely terrorist attack on the locations mentioned would be from the ground ie Glasgow airport 2007, which a Typhoon would be utterly useless against.

In my work at a civil airport, we pick up bits here and there on what the threats are likely to be. Im not about to divulge such info on an open forum but its not too hard to figure out youve only scratched the surface with what you have mentioned. And chasing airliners and Ruskies is only a part of the modern QRA, the pilots have very useful weapons they have had from birth.

Lossie on a whole is by far the more flexible base between the two and therefore makes more sense to keep it, also QRA duties is only one task that will be carried out by the Multi role Typhoon Squadrons, they are not dedicated Air Defence like the Tornado F3 was.

With the the Typhoon being a firm favourite of mine, i obviously know nothing and will have to bow to you superior knowledge! And i cant remember starting a "my base is better than yours" with anyone at any point throughout this whole sorry affair!

I think you might have mis heard the figures quoted or maybe I did, but I thought it was 1300 troops to Leuchars with the rest to Kinloss/Arbroath

Sorry was just back from a very good family holiday with a wet ending, RIAT, and only read through what is available on here and Airshows and was using an old media based figure. My bad for that! However i did use the word potential!
Arabest,
Geoff.

[Malcolm]

I know GR4 depth maintenance is at Marham, but don't forget it was originally intended to be at Lossiemouth. Indeed, the structure still exists - behind 15's ramp. As I understand it from some serving personnel this expensive facility has been effectively empty since it was completed. It certainly has not been used for its intended purpose?

The cost of building the hangars is insignificant compared to the equipment and personel required to operate them. We used to have 7 Tonka squadrons in Germany, and another 4 here plus TWCU and the TTTE. So at the end of the cold war, and even the end of Gulf War 1 two deep maintenance bases could be justified. But not now. The future may be brighter if its decided these hangars are suitable for JSF/F-35 deep maintenance, but my worry is that some bright spark is going to decide they need brand new shiny offices and hangars to support their brand new shiny JSF's.

And if it's true about F-35s being based at Lossiemouth what happens to Marham when the GR4 goes out of service in 2020 or 2025?

Same thing as happened to Coltishall when the Jags retired, or Wyton when the Canberras retired, or Binbrook when the Lightnings retired. I know a few people within BAe who are turning down job offers that involve moving to Norfolk because it only offers them 5 years garantee/contracts of employment. And I can't say I blame them.

[davedubya]

Marham is now solely relying on an aircraft that is being phased out.

Once the Tornado's operations end, what purpose would Marham have from then on?

[RichC]

There is a possibility that the F-35 will be be earmarked for Marham.
Don't forget, the F-35 was going to Lossiemouth and Typhoons at Leuchars. Now Typhoons are going to Lossiemouth, there won't be room for F-35s so the F-35 will be needed to be based elsewhere such as Yeovilton or Marham.

[Thunder]

RichC, there are only the 2 Sqns of Typhoons earmarked for Lossie, so this leaves plenty of room for 50+ F35's at Lossie when the time comes


NAM updater, thanks for correcting me on Mr Hague, I knew he was MP for one of the bases in Yorkshire don't know why I put Marham long night at work

[POL]

...so the F-35 will be needed to be based elsewhere such as Yeovilton or Marham.

Never giving up hope, are you?

[ArabJazzie]

But i also see the financial benefits in moving the army into the area, but that is comparing the current staffing levels to the potential of 5000 troops moving in. But i smell a rat with the numbers when the announced army cuts are factored in.

I think you might have mis heard the figures quoted or maybe I did, but I thought it was 1300 troops to Leuchars with the rest to Kinloss/Arbroath

Not sure that i heard it right but the BBC just mentioned a figure of only 37/3800 of displaced troops moving to Scotland with 2 significant units moving into Leuchars with the rest between Kinloss and Condor being mentioned. Well at least i see an outline on that Rat now! South of Scotland was mentioned for the training area. Thinking out loud here, a bigger Otterburn maybe? All realistic comments welcome
Arabest,
Geoff.

[Unknown74]

RAF Leuchars was closed by a combination of things, known as Political Parties, it was a combined effort by Conservative, Liberal Democrats and Scottish National Party. Laim Fox, Danny "Ginger Rodent" Alexander, Angus Robertson (he may say he campaigned for both but I don't believe him) amongst others. 18th July 2011 was the day the Royal Air Force was destroyed for me personally. I would like to point out that as stated that I really love Lossiemouth but as well I really love(d) Leuchars due to the fact that I am a Plane Spotter who comes from Edinburgh who due to a combination of things ie Work and Family reasons I cannot travel very far very often ie I can only get to England or Morayshire when on Family Holidays when we go South or North so for me personally as I say Leuchars was really my best chance for a quick Spotting trip when we popped up to St Andrews that will in 2 Years be nothing more than a memory.

Even though I am only slightly interested in the Army I am sorry but I still find it hard to think of Leuchars as anything other than an RAF Flying Station, also I am also devasted for the Personell at Redford and Dreghorn both of which I pass regularly and I always think they are very impressive.

Hang your head in shame Dr Laim Fox!

[Thunder]

Not sure that i heard it right but the BBC just mentioned a figure of only 37/3800 of displaced troops moving to Scotland with 2 significant units moving into Leuchars with the rest between Kinloss and Condor being mentioned. Well at least i see an outline on that Rat now! South of Scotland was mentioned for the training area. Thinking out loud here, a bigger Otterburn maybe? All realistic comments welcome
Arabest,
Geoff.

I think you heard correctly with the figures that you quote above as being what is going to Leuchars (1300) and Kinloss (2000) with the rest (500-600) going to Arbroath. I think the remaining number of the 5000 that has been quoted elsewhere are going to HMS Caledonia(Rosyth), Faslane and Kirknewton along with those displaced from Redford/Dreghorn.

With regards the training areas two sites have been looked at, one in the Borders and one in Caithness. The Borders one I would imagine would be a continuation of Otterburn.

[urkles]

RAF Leuchars was closed by a combination of things, known as Political Parties, it was a combined effort by Conservative, Liberal Democrats and Scottish National Party. Laim Fox, Danny "Ginger Rodent" Alexander, Angus Robertson (he may say he campaigned for both but I don't believe him) amongst others. 18th July 2011 was the day the Royal Air Force was destroyed for me personally. I would like to point out that as stated that I really love Lossiemouth but as well I really love(d) Leuchars due to the fact that I am a Plane Spotter who comes from Edinburgh who due to a combination of things ie Work and Family reasons I cannot travel very far very often ie I can only get to England or Morayshire when on Family Holidays when we go South or North so for me personally as I say Leuchars was really my best chance for a quick Spotting trip when we popped up to St Andrews that will in 2 Years be nothing more than a memory.

Even though I am only slightly interested in the Army I am sorry but I still find it hard to think of Leuchars as anything other than an RAF Flying Station, also I am also devasted for the Personell at Redford and Dreghorn both of which I pass regularly and I always think they are very impressive.

Hang your head in shame Dr Laim Fox!

Correct me if I am wrong but are you implying that the reason you are so upset about the decision is because it inconviencess your hobby? And that the problems and cuts are all politicians fault except the Labour party?

Surely the most important thing here is people real lives, and the fact is, the way I see it, is that Leuchars will remain open, albeit as an Army camp. Thus minimal job losses in the area and with a new barracks being created - new jobs, and the three army camps shutting creating new housing.

[Thunder]

RAF Leuchars was closed by a combination of things, known as Political Parties, it was a combined effort by Conservative, Liberal Democrats and Scottish National Party. Laim Fox, Danny "Ginger Rodent" Alexander, Angus Robertson (he may say he campaigned for both but I don't believe him) amongst others. 18th July 2011 was the day the Royal Air Force was destroyed for me personally. I would like to point out that as stated that I really love Lossiemouth but as well I really love(d) Leuchars due to the fact that I am a Plane Spotter who comes from Edinburgh who due to a combination of things ie Work and Family reasons I cannot travel very far very often ie I can only get to England or Morayshire when on Family Holidays when we go South or North so for me personally as I say Leuchars was really my best chance for a quick Spotting trip when we popped up to St Andrews that will in 2 Years be nothing more than a memory.

Even though I am only slightly interested in the Army I am sorry but I still find it hard to think of Leuchars as anything other than an RAF Flying Station, also I am also devasted for the Personell at Redford and Dreghorn both of which I pass regularly and I always think they are very impressive.

Hang your head in shame Dr Laim Fox!

How on earth was the RAF destroyed yesterday, your hobby maybe but certainly not the RAF, and why are you devastated for those personnel currently at Redford/Dreghorn? They will be moving into a brand new purpose built barracks just down the road which will provide them with far better training and living facilities.

[Arthur Tee]

Even though I am only slightly interested in the Army I am sorry but I still find it hard to think of Leuchars as anything other than an RAF Flying Station, also I am also devasted for the Personell at Redford and Dreghorn both of which I pass regularly and I always think they are very impressive.

Hang your head in shame Dr Laim Fox!

Trust me - Redford Barracks are far from impressive!

Last September I had the misfortune to stay there - the showers had a choice of Cold, Baltic or Freezing water - no wonder a large number of Scots have a blue tinge to their complexions!

The sooner they knock them down the better....

Arthur

[Hunter]

As was pointed out earlier today in the media, in all three armed services there is a top-heavy emphasis pluss too many 'hangars-on'. For example, there were more Group Captains in the RAF as at October 2010 than there were in 1939-1945! Furthermore, once the latest cuts have been implemented the British Army will have 102,000 people in uniform of which only 9,000 will be frontline troops, i.e. troops that will be trained for the firing line! The RN and RAF are no different and all three services should cut posts that are surplus. Look at, for example, the number of uniformed bureaucrats each service employs. And then of course there's the MoD, and although it's been stated that 25,000 civil servants in the MoD will go, my guess is that this won't in fact happen. There'll just be a very quiet reshuffling.

Considering the cost of the contract for BAe to in-depth service GR4s etc raises the question as to why the RAF doesn't carry out its own maintenance? The Army do so on the frontline through the highly trained technicians/engineers from REME. The RN likewise because civilians are not allowed at sea on a warship deployed on operations, particularly but not exclusively, submarines. A couple of years ago I was talking to a Squadron Leader Engineer. He was highly trained in aeronatical engineering (a graduate), specialising in engines, yet he told me his skill, knowledge and expertise would hardly be used in a hands-on capacity for more than three or four years during his RAF career because of the way personnel are deployed from one posting to another; postings not necessarily reflecting the expertise of the individual.

As for F-35s going to Yeovilton check out MoD publications. Rightly or wrongly Yeovilton was one of the first to be ruled out because of noise and close proximity to Yeovil.

[urkles]

Good points, except the last line, I remember there being a noise issue, but not from Yeovil, thats miles away! (It was when I lived there anyway, it may have moved )

[ythanpythan]

RAF Leuchars was closed by a combination of things, known as Political Parties, it was a combined effort by Conservative, Liberal Democrats and Scottish National Party. Laim Fox, Danny "Ginger Rodent" Alexander, Angus Robertson (he may say he campaigned for both but I don't believe him) amongst others. 18th July 2011 was the day the Royal Air Force was destroyed for me personally. I would like to point out that as stated that I really love Lossiemouth but as well I really love(d) Leuchars due to the fact that I am a Plane Spotter who comes from Edinburgh who due to a combination of things ie Work and Family reasons I cannot travel very far very often ie I can only get to England or Morayshire when on Family Holidays when we go South or North so for me personally as I say Leuchars was really my best chance for a quick Spotting trip when we popped up to St Andrews that will in 2 Years be nothing more than a memory.

Even though I am only slightly interested in the Army I am sorry but I still find it hard to think of Leuchars as anything other than an RAF Flying Station, also I am also devasted for the Personell at Redford and Dreghorn both of which I pass regularly and I always think they are very impressive.

Hang your head in shame Dr Laim Fox!

You've outdone yourself this time, what a load of

[HighlandSniper]

Between this and today's Waterbeach thread, we've had the most rubbish I've seen posted on FC in a long time. Despite the future situation being well explained by the Defence Secretary, we've had inaccurate speculation, ridiculous and tactless comments along with pure self-interest from some quarters, i.e. effectively "Dr Fox has ruined my spotting" etc.

Thanks to a couple of members, anyone looking in on FC today from the outside could be mistaken for thinking that this is a forum of selfish idiots rather than generally well balanced and well informed military aviation enthusiasts.

You know who you are ... ... ...

[balders]

RAF Leuchars was closed by a combination of things, known as Political Parties, it was a combined effort by Conservative, Liberal Democrats and Scottish National Party. Laim Fox, Danny "Ginger Rodent" Alexander, Angus Robertson (he may say he campaigned for both but I don't believe him) amongst others. 18th July 2011 was the day the Royal Air Force was destroyed for me personally. I would like to point out that as stated that I really love Lossiemouth but as well I really love(d) Leuchars due to the fact that I am a Plane Spotter who comes from Edinburgh who due to a combination of things ie Work and Family reasons I cannot travel very far very often ie I can only get to England or Morayshire when on Family Holidays when we go South or North so for me personally as I say Leuchars was really my best chance for a quick Spotting trip when we popped up to St Andrews that will in 2 Years be nothing more than a memory.

Even though I am only slightly interested in the Army I am sorry but I still find it hard to think of Leuchars as anything other than an RAF Flying Station, also I am also devasted for the Personell at Redford and Dreghorn both of which I pass regularly and I always think they are very impressive.

Hang your head in shame Dr Laim Fox!

Going by these ramblings it appears you hold more importance in your hobby than the national defence. It matters not who occupies a base be it army, airforce or navy as long as the local community is supported economically. England and Wales are littered with disused Air bases that are either rotting away or turned into prisons. Just because one base,wherever it may be, is closed it does not mean that the RAF is finished particularly when that base was only going to host two squadrons. At least Lossi will retain a Tornado squadron and be able to fully prepare for the introduction of the F-35C whenever that may be. As Highland sniper has said bear in mind who reads this and other sites like it. With the two daft remarks made today it reduces the credibility of the site.

[davedubya]

There is a possibility that the F-35 will be be earmarked for Marham.
Don't forget, the F-35 was going to Lossiemouth and Typhoons at Leuchars. Now Typhoons are going to Lossiemouth, there won't be room for F-35s so the F-35 will be needed to be based elsewhere such as Yeovilton or Marham.

So Coningsby, Marham and Lossiemouth are now the RAF fighter stations, right? (unless I've forgotten somewhere)

...perhaps Marham is fairly safe in the long-run.

[headset 57]

Good point Thunder! I'd completely forgotten that 14 have gone - and so had those from where I'd heard what I posted!

ChrisGlobe: I know GR4 depth maintenance is at Marham, but don't forget it was originally intended to be at Lossiemouth. Indeed, the structure still exists - behind 15's ramp. As I understand it from some serving personnel this expensive facility has been effectively empty since it was completed. It certainly has not been used for its intended purpose. And if it's true about F-35s being based at Lossiemouth what happens to Marham when the GR4 goes out of service in 2020 or 2025?

Considering the reduction in UK defence forces and the RAF in particular we could soon find ourselves in a situation where the USAF F-15s at RAF Lakenheath out-number the number of operational fast jets in the UK...

Deviating from the subject of this thread, it's interesting to note that even official RAF station websites are guilty of misinformation, albeit on a minor scale. Note the number of stations who claim they are the busiest and largest fast jet station in the RAF/UK! Be interesting to know which really is - on the basis of number of movements per year per aircraft based at the particular station (i.e. ignoring visitors).

busiest now,
brize & northolt Coningsby waddington respectively