FighterControl

I jusr ran across an article in ny online news feed attributed to the Daily Mail about a proposal to shift RAF pilot training to the US. In the article it mentioned that some 27 pilots are already being trained in the US and Italy. I did a search of this forum to see if it had been discussed here but my search didn't turn up any threads about it. So, here's my question: Is this a real proposal and if so, what's mativationg it? My last aviation job was working Tweet's and Talon's at the pilot training base Columbus AFB MS and so I know the USAF trains a lot of foreign students. So the proposaal doesn't sound too odd from that perspective. Still, unless there's the posibility of saving significant money I would think it more desireable to keep pilot training "in-house".

What does our group here think of the proposal?

Thanks,

Chris

Small matter of the dealing with the Private companies that took the job on over here as MFTS

It could free up the Hawk T2 for the Red Arrows.

Quite a few NATO European countries already use the "EN" training unit at Sheppard AFB in Texas.

Been happening for a while

They use ENJJPT at Sheppards airforce base

Only a matter of time after the training syllabus went private!

I've been out of the loop for a couple of years but this has been discussed on pilots forums (PPrune).
The Hawk TMk.2 has suffered from engine reliability problems and the engines needs extra maintanence, limiting the flying at Valley (the MoD contract probably didn't have enough spare engines in there either). QFI's are a rare commodity as well.
The RAF are using USAF training, but it wasn't preferred in the past as it didn't quite provide the standards required - I don't know if that has changed. Of course, the NFTC in Canada doesn't exist now. I don't know how many are training in Italy and there's a small number using the Qatar T.Mk.2A at Leeming.
I guess the plan is to make the RAF self-sufficient again when R-R get their ducks in a row.
As for T.Mk2 for the Reds - that's not on the cards at least for a few years yet!

The problem with training in the USA is the pilots still need additional training, thus training aircraft and infrastructure, to acclimatise for European weather conditions and procedures.
Are graduates from T-38 able to go straight into Typhoon ? Thinks USAF still have dedicated F-16 / F-15 training squadrons, obviously F-35, without duel seat aircraft, is all simulator based.
Whilst there are problems within the UK training system a number of students will be filtered off for oversea training simply to maintain numbers.

Question that has puzzled me is since the withdraw of the 45sqn King Airs where does RAF get multi engine training for the A400 Atlas ? must be a big change from the Phenom.
Do the A400, C-17, P-8 squadrons run a OCU course ? Or is that shared with European / USA partners ?

Well training at Sheppard works perfectly well for Norway which has much more inclement weather than do we, similarly the USAF students destined for Alaska. For UK students the extra training is minimal when they get back here, and the cost/time of that has to be balanced against the fact that students progress much faster through their training in Texas, if the NATO school loses days in the week they fly at weekends.

Studes will go to the Typhoon/F-35 OCUs from Sheppard after some work on the sims at Valley, and it's widely accepted that training with NATO colleagues who you then may work with on exercises or operations in future is of real benefit.

We may see additional students train overseas but I suspect this will be within the NFTE construct, not ENJJPTs. Similarly we will continue to train overseas students in the UK, most notably at Shawbury and of course Ukrainians elsewhere.

All multi-engine pilots go from Phenom to the OCUs at Brize, Lossie and Waddington.

There has been some speculation in the media about the current RAF FJ training being less than stellar, for a number of reasons.
Maybe, doing something different will clear the log jam and get pilots to the front line in less than the seven years oft quoted.
As a tax payer I would feel that defending the realm is of prime importance, rather than making excuses for a scheme that patently is not fit for purpose.
ember, if you do what you always did, you get what you always got.

Just a personal view , feel free to disagree!

when R-R get their ducks in a row

What does this mean sorry?

gamecock wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 05, 2024 1:51 pm

when R-R get their ducks in a row

What does this mean sorry?

Rolls Royce I imagine.

Getting ducks in a row - getting organised and prepared.

Yes, but in what context I mean. What ducks? Rolls-Royce employee here.

gamecock wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 05, 2024 2:55 pm

Yes, but in what context I mean. What ducks? Rolls-Royce employee here.

I was being polite - R-R to get their engine problems sorted!
The Mk.951 needed a fan redesign in development, so it hasn't been an easy upgrade for the Adour engine.

Thanks to all who responded for the informative discussion, For example, I had no idea the Hawk was suffering from engine problems.

Thanks folks!

Chris

The RAF already has students in American at ENJJPT

There's an InsideAir podcast all about it here: https://youtu.be/3hkpN9oHI8Q?si=jii7wWCt6vif6GPm

Doughnut wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 04, 2024 11:50 am

The problem with training in the USA is the pilots still need additional training, thus training aircraft and infrastructure, to acclimatise for European weather conditions and procedures.
Are graduates from T-38 able to go straight into Typhoon ? Thinks USAF still have dedicated F-16 / F-15 training squadrons, obviously F-35, without duel seat aircraft, is all simulator based.
Whilst there are problems within the UK training system a number of students will be filtered off for oversea training simply to maintain numbers.

Question that has puzzled me is since the withdraw of the 45sqn King Airs where does RAF get multi engine training for the A400 Atlas ? must be a big change from the Phenom.
Do the A400, C-17, P-8 squadrons run a OCU course ? Or is that shared with European / USA partners ?

M/E Training has been with Phenom regardless which platform (C-17A/P-8/A400M/RC-135 soon to be E-7) the graduates get streamed on as Phenom replaced King Airs.

Up Until now USAF M/E pilots been training on the Beech T-1 Jayhawk and streamed onto all their types including C-130H and J.
The training syllabus post T-6A Texan II will be synthetic as the T-1 is replaced with no replacement.

https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display ... nd-of-era/

Cheers
Then again some Multi Engine students have gone with the Navy on the T-44 Pegasus with likes of VT-31 Wise Owls at NAS Corpus Christi.

For those heading to fly remaining C-12 in the USAF inventory such as Embassy Flights or C-12J with 374th AW at Yokota it’s likely to be a pilot whose already flown one of the heavies and if they selected for C-12 then they go to Edwards

https://www.edwards.af.mil/News/Photos/ ... 001022840/

Chris in Tennessee wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 03, 2024 6:12 pm

I jusr ran across an article in ny online news feed attributed to the Daily Mail about a proposal to shift RAF pilot training to the US. In the article it mentioned that some 27 pilots are already being trained in the US and Italy. I did a search of this forum to see if it had been discussed here but my search didn't turn up any threads about it. So, here's my question: Is this a real proposal and if so, what's mativationg it? My last aviation job was working Tweet's and Talon's at the pilot training base Columbus AFB MS and so I know the USAF trains a lot of foreign students. So the proposaal doesn't sound too odd from that perspective. Still, unless there's the posibility of saving significant money I would think it more desireable to keep pilot training "in-house".

What does our group here think of the proposal?

Thanks,

Chris

Hi Chris,

Read RAF Yearbook 1994, there is an excellent second article in there about RAF instructors and studes at ENJJPT one of the instructor there interview with a Flt Lt Constable and one of his studes was a Loughborough Uni (Leics UAS) graduate …

Also if you get a chance please check out this book also published in 1994 from Rob Lea on his career as Harrier GR5 Display Pilot. He was trained at ENJJPT as there’s a whole chapter on it.

https://www.abebooks.com/first-edition/ ... 6385245/bd

In both the RAF Yearbook 1994 and Rob‘s book there’s references to how the USAF AETC training regime works and it’s anyth8ng but flexible. For example over there if an instructor decides when they’re already airborne to add something to change something for the session, it having to call ATC Land back fill in more paperwork, etc etc and then go back up, whereas here a Valley Hawk instructor and stude go up and if the instructor wants to change something he just calls up ATC and tells them then gets on with it.

As everyone says most NATO nations go to ENJJPT likes of Belgium, Denmark, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Germany, IPortugal (?),etc etc

The system does work if only to get to solo stage and beyond then come back over to this side of the pond and get acclimatized ..

Cheers

CAS has briefed that lack of availability of T2s is impacting training!!

https://www.forcesnews.com/services/raf ... et-trainer

Correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the reasons the Luftwaffe lost so many F-104s was that the pilots were trained by the USAF in the CAVU conditions of Arizona.
They were then declared 'combat ready' and sent back to their squadrons to perform a low level strike/attack role in the clag of Western Europe!
Discuss.............