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REACHs and France
Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2023 5:49 pm
by Edelweiss
Hi!
Over the years I have observed some mysterious pattern and that is that REACH flights in transit rarely ever cross into French airspace. E.g. flights from Spain to Germany follow the coast line along Bordeaux and then through the English Channel and the into NL airspace to Germany.
Or from elsewhere, France is generally not entered if the destination is not there.
One sees significant detours because of that. Does anybody know why this is?
Permits because of dodgy cargo?
Thanks
Mike
Re: REACHs and France
Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2023 8:23 pm
by tim_raper
I could be wrong, but I think the origin of this is rooted way back in the late 60's when de Gaulle ordered all US Forces out of France at very short notice.
Re: REACHs and France
Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:49 pm
by Ghastly Whisper
France is a well known pain in the arse for non French military, best avoided. I think the latest victim was the Greek F-4 trying to get home after leaving RIAT, hence it returned.
Re: REACHs and France
Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2023 7:40 am
by Snoop 95
If true not a friendly attitude by a fellow NATO member, especially as their KC135's regularly route over other members' territory, including the UK.
Re: REACHs and France
Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2023 8:26 am
by POL
It's a flightplanning thing. I've explained it lots of times here and on UKAR but it's quicker to avoid it than have your flightplan rejected at the last moment and get turned away.
Re: REACHs and France
Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2023 9:57 am
by luxto
tim_raper wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 8:23 pm
I could be wrong, but I think the origin of this is rooted way back in the late 60's when de Gaulle ordered all US Forces out of France at very short notice.
Don't think there is a connection tim. When Gen. de Gaulle gave the US notice to quit France in March 1966 (which took about a year to complete)
USAF transports had been overflying the Southern UK to and from West Germany for several years beforehand with no requirement to overfly France. Their main route Eastbound was Green 1/Upper Green 1 roughly STU - DVR, with LND - IBSLEY - MID - DVR used to a lesser extent. Westbounds routed CLN - BPK - WOD then West or CLN - BPK - MID then West.
As for the Greek F-4 being turned back the other day it may well have been a Flight Plan issue or it may have missed its slot time.
Why do US Mil a/c take the long way around avoiding French airspace? I can think of 3 reasons - hazardous cargo, no Diplomatic Clearance and avoiding Flow Control delays.
Re: REACHs and France
Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2023 2:16 pm
by Blackcat1
Ah i remember the Strumble - Dover route! Right OTT. Now Reach flights are rare sadly
Re: REACHs and France
Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2023 9:16 pm
by raptor9
Re the Greek F.4 and possible flightplan issues. I wonder why the F.4 couldn't have transited their airspace at high level. Not many airliners at 45,000 feet these days.
A controller wouldn't have been too busy with traffic there.
Re: REACHs and France
Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2023 10:10 pm
by POL
Because it would have needed to have filed an OAT flightplan at FL455.
Plenty of business jets in the FL430-470 range nowadays, just take a look worldwide at
https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?filterAltMin=43000
Re: REACHs and France
Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2023 10:53 pm
by luxto
raptor9 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 9:16 pm
Re the Greek F.4 and possible flightplan issues. I wonder why the F.4 couldn't have transited their airspace at high level. Not many airliners at 45,000 feet these days.
A controller wouldn't have been too busy with traffic there.
Never heard of an F-4 cruising above FL400 but there were lots of instances of them going way above that on Functional Check Flights - Air Tests to us Brits.
Re: REACHs and France
Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2023 8:30 pm
by Edelweiss
Well that is a lot of interesting answers but no real conclusion. All i can say is that the detours at times are significant in time and £££ fuel. The deGaulle theory is also interesting, this must have been in 71 when they came with ships to collect their gold
Very strange things happening in France, seems very unpredictable there and Macaroon also can't be trusted on which side he really is. It's all big theater. Must be some VERY significant reason. Sadly I have lost contact to an AMC crew member I knew for many years.
Re: REACHs and France
Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2023 9:45 pm
by POL
POL wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 8:26 am
It's a flightplanning thing. I've explained it lots of times here and on UKAR but it's quicker to avoid it than have your flightplan rejected at the last moment and get turned away.
Re: REACHs and France
Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2023 9:53 pm
by slogen51
You maybe correct in your original premise regards Reach flights although there isn't much call for flights from Germany to Spain. However, Fighters returning from the middle east to stop over at Lakenheath for example nearly always transit through French airspace. I bet the HL heading east will head south with a tanker through south point then into French airspace.
It is certainly true that french ATC causes lots of stress due to incorrect flight plans based on years of airband listening.
Re: REACHs and France
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2023 4:37 pm
by daveir68
I believe the flight plan for the Greek Phantom hadn’t been amended correctly & still showed 2 aircraft instead of 1. Hence the French & Belgians rejecting it.
Re: REACHs and France
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2023 4:41 pm
by Rob666
daveir68 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 4:37 pm
I believe the flight plan for the Greek Phantom hadn’t been amended correctly & still showed 2 aircraft instead of 1. Hence the French & Belgians rejecting it.
Obviously they have not watched 'Top Gun' when the one blip on the radar changes
