Full of Bull**** Kept in the dark.

[johnhowe]

I was recently in conversation with a retired RAF Crew Chief he was recalling his time on Vulcans. He started telling
me about The "Fobs" Kid Syndrome he also mentioned The Tirpitz incident some thing involving 9 & 617Squadrons
before he could elaborate any further, he received a mobile phone call about a family crisis and had to leave immediately to go down south. Do any of our service personell know what The Tirpitz Incident was about?.

[Trenchard]

It might be that both 9 and 617 claim to have sunk the Tirpitz.

Of course everyone knows 9 Sqn actually did it

[johnhowe]

It might be that both 9 and 617 claim to have sunk the Tirpitz.

Of course everyone knows 9 Sqn actually did it

I dont think its anything to do with Wartime Aircraft it involved Vulcans.

[Trenchard]

In that case he may have been referring to the way the piece of Tirpitz recovered after the war would continually 'disappear' from display at one Sqn and 'reappear' at the other Sqn shortly afterward.

[Gary]

Going to make next week or so at Marham fun

[johnhowe]

This is an abbreviated version of "The Tirpitz Incident", During WW11 both 617 & 9 Squadrons had been credited with
the Sinking of the German Battleship " Bismark" which had been sheltering in a Norwegian Fiord. After the War The Norwegian Government had presented a bulkhead from the Battleship to both Squadrons to share between them. One
trophy between two Squadrons was almost the catalyst to WW3 and the competition between the two Squadrons was intense

To set the scene in late January, 1971 a 9 Squadrom Vulcan based at Akrotiri was being prepared for a UK Ranger by
NEAF Bomber Wing from Cyprus to the UK and apart from the Exercise Schedule there was a much darker agenda- an
operation that would go down in the Annals of RAF History as legendary. The real mission was to raid 617 (Dambusters) Squadron at Scampton to retrieve the trophy of the Tirpitz bulkhead that had been stolen from them
earlier under shady circumstances on the 7th, January, 1971.

Only the Captain and the co pilot of the Akrotiri Vulcan were in on the plot which had been planned by THe OC 9 Squadron in Cyprus, with a certain amount of subterfuge the bulkhead was located and and retrieved and hidden in
a hire van, by this time personell from 617 Squadron were aware of the theft and began searching for the missing
trophy more and more problems arose the trophy couldntbe hidden at Waddington or Cranwell or Cottesmore so
It was decided to lodge the Bukhead at Wittering in the dispatch office. End of part 1 SWMBO has shouted Tea.

[JG71]

P2225932 CPL J Maher MT Akrotiri 71 has the answers but he is in heaven and he was my dad.I knew about this or something very similar as he used to tell me stories when i was young.

I remember waking one morning when we lived in Cyprus and my mum and dad were wrapping bottles of Teachers whisky.The bottles then made their way to Lyneham lol.Their son was no better K8209608 SAC JP Maher.Oh yes thats me.You will have to Brimstone me first to find out

[johnhowe]

The Tirpitz Incident Part 2.

The Vulcan which after being searched for the missing trophy was allowed to leave Waddington enroute for Akrotiri however The Captain had other ideas and requested a PD to Wittering with a Roller this was denied the Captain then
fabricated a minor emergency, which allowed him to land at Wittering. Actually the aircraft did not feel right at this point.It was yawing and the controls felt sloppy, they were the Captain realised very heavy with fuel and travelling too
fast. Touchdown was made on the threshold and it was soon realised that the speed was too fast and on heavy braking they soon had The ATC Tower reporting smoke from the landing wheels. when they eventually came to a stop
ATC,asked where they had come from, they said Akrotiri and that they were in transit from Waddington back to Akrotiri.

The Vulcan Captain left the aircraft and greeted the Station Commander and explained that the fault was something that his crew chiefs could cope with and fix once the brakes had cooled down, he requested a landrover to pick up
some spare parts fom the stores which was in fact The Tirpitz Bulkhead, when this was safely stowed in the Vulcan,
the Vulcan was refuelled and returned to Akrotiri, mission accomplished.

[madcat11]

The battle for the Bulkhead. Of course IX(B) Sqn sank the Tirpitz. The Junior Sqn didn't come close.

[HighlandSniper]

Hasn't the real bulkhead been taken into offical possession (i.e. RAF Museum or similar) and replicas now held by both squadrons, or at least that's what I was told recently at Lossie.

[NAM Updater]

The battle for the Bulkhead. Of course IX(B) Sqn sank the Tirpitz. The Junior Sqn didn't come close.

It was a privilege being introduced to and interviewing Dennis Nolan, a former IX(B) Squadron bomb aimer who has a very good claim to be the person who dropped the Tallboy that finally sank the Tirpitz! The article was published in 2004 in Aeroplane magazine, sadly Dennis passed away shortly after.

I'm looking forward to Thursday's 'rematch!'

[old_git]

Interesting stuff.

i think its fair for 617 sqn to claim the sinking of Tirpitz as the final raid was led by Willie Tait who was a 617 Sqn pilot.

history says the first bomb dropped missed and the 2nd, 3rd and 4th got direct hits followed by others.

i would say that the hit by the 4th bomb near the funnel would be the one that blew up the magazine causing the largest destruction blast.

This is believed to of been LM 489 flown by F/O Gingles of 617 Sqn from what i have read.

but of course subsequent hits by the following aircraft may of been a contributing factor to The Tirpitz's ultimate quick demise.

From the post flight report of F/L R.E Knights flying lancaster PB 415.

" 0842 13,400 ft Our bomb fell about ten yards off port quarter. we saw the first 4 bombs go down as follows: on or near starborad quarter, starboard bow; port bow and near funnel. we remained near target area untill end of attack and saw large explosion at 0851 hrs. and a small one at 0853 hrs.
before we left we saw Tirpitz listing heavily to port.
Bombing by 617 was concentrated and accurate. Four of 9 squadrons bombs ( using mk14 bombsight ) fell approx 200 yards, 500 yards, 3/4 mile, 1 mile."

Of course credit, admiration and thanks have to go to all the crews of bomber command who took part in all the raids during the war.

apparantly the bulkhead piece is in the Bomber command museum now.

Geoff

[NAM Updater]

The theoretical bomb plots that Dennis showed me formed a major part of how I approached writing the article; along with the fact that after they returned from the Op Dennis was flown down to London and was photographed with assorted senior officer outside the Air Ministry. A copy of that picture was used in the article.

Here are Dennis Nolan’s words about his bombing run in IX(B) Squadrons Y – ‘Younger’, flown by Doug Tweddle.

“Very early in the attack somebody scored a direct hit and this severely damaged Tirpitz because there was a huge jet of steam and smoke that came up several thousand feet and all the guns on the ship stopped firing, except one. That fired up at a fixed trajectory and kept on going. The muzzle flash from that gun effectively became my aiming point. This was because the smoke and steam from the other bomb bursts was starting to obscure the Tirpitz.

So I let fly with the old Tallboy and with the general atmosphere being clear I ducked down and looked between my knees and watched our Tallboy all the way down. I daren’t blink and it disappeared into the smoke and that’s as much as you’re going to get out of me about sinking the Tirpitz!

After bomb release we had to fly straight and level to enable our on-board photoflash camera to record our theoretical aiming point. Still looking backwards and down I said, ‘She’s going over’, ‘No I can’t be!’ Perhaps not those exact words but something similar. I initially thought that all the water that had been splashed up onto it and the blood red sun was reflecting on the water. In actual fact it was the red lead on her bottom because she really was going over.”

Our thoughts should go out to all that were involved and at this Remembrance time to those that did not return.

[old_git]

So Dennis's tallboy couldn't be the one to sink the Tirpitz then.

The damage was done when the magazine exploded primarily which ripped the side out of the ship.

One of the very few survivors from the ship stated that she rolled over ten minutes after the magazine exploded as she started to take on water massively from the gaping side wound.

So the bomb that exploded in the magazine is the one that primarily sank her. it can't of been Dennis's bomb as he followed it down he saw her rolling over as his bomb disapeared into the smoke from the previous bombs so it may well of hit the ship as she rolled over, but she was already sinking by the time he dropped his bomb.

i'm not surprised Dennis was taken to London to represent 9 sqdn. So was Willie Tate who actually gave a radio broadcast about the raid and received a gong as well.

just my interpretation of the evidence available.

Geoff

[NAM Updater]

If you re-read his words, the Tirpitz going over was only seen after Dennis …..“watched our Tallboy all the way down.”

My apologies to Doug Tweddle and the Navigator - earlier today I fogot to mention that they were awarded DFCs.

[johnhowe]

Im going to keep the same title but im going to reintroduce some other wartime stories which I have gleaned from
some actual wartime newspapers that I came across at a local car boot sale.

The Battle of Barking Creek.

It started when an East coast radar station reported an unidentified "plot" over the North Sea. A section of Fighters
were scrambled to investigate. The plot got bigger. A whole squadron was sent up. The plot got bigger still- apparently waves of aircraft were sweeping in to the Essex coast. More squadrons were scrambled. Plenty of people believed
Hitler would start the war with a display of aerial frightfulness. This looked like Der Tag.

By chance the King happened to be visiting Bentley Priory Headquarters of Fighter Command at the time. He found an impressive display of coloured plaques building up on the Ops Rom map-and a distracted host in the Commander in Chief, Dowding.

The Battle raged for about an hour, with the air full of fighter leaders, pleas for further causes to steer, it stretched as far as Kent, where two Hurricanes were shot down-by as it turned out,Spitfires. Then, as the fighters fuel ran low and the squadrons returned to land at their home bases, the radar plot dwindled, faded out,died. No bombs seemed to have fallen; no nemy aircraft had been sighted. A hasty investigation was started. End of part one. To be Cont

[old_git]

If you re-read his words, the Tirpitz going over was only seen after Dennis …..“watched our Tallboy all the way down.”

he also states that the bomb disapeared into the smoke so he didn't see it hit the ship nor does he claim to have hit her.

many of the 617 pilots also reported that their bombs disapeared into the smoke and may of been a hit or near miss.

According to the Australian pilot filming in another lancaster ( i can't remember his name now ) they were the last on scene and did a low level pass and were just about to depart when they saw her start to roll over, they went around again and filmed the rollover with another low pass.

this was coroborated by a survivor on the ship who was blown into the water.

Dennis also clearly stated that before they dropped their Tallboy another had scored a direct hit

“Very early in the attack somebody scored a direct hit and this severely damaged Tirpitz because there was a huge jet of steam and smoke that came up several thousand feet and all the guns on the ship stopped firing

.

This direct hit was most probably the one that hit the magazine.

Dennis hadn't dropped his bomb at this time as he states he used the one remaining gun still firing as his aiming point.

Dennis's bomb drop is simply too close in time to the roll over if he could see it between his legs to have been the cause.

a hit from a tallboy would not cause the rollover, history states that the roll over was due to flooding caused by the gaping hole caused by the magazine explosion.

Bear in mind on a previous raid she had been hit by a tallboy which went right through and destroyed the engine room disabling her, she was then towed to Tromso.

From the magazine explosion to roll over is stated as 10 minutes by a survivor which for a lancaster travelling at 150 MPH would mean the aircraft which dropped the Tallboy in question would be 25 miles away, too far to see between your legs looking backwards through the bomb aimers position.

It is highly unlikely in my view that Dennis can claim to be responsible for the sinking of the Tirpitz on his own.

But basically the timeline of the raid means that the damage was done before he dropped his tallboy whether he hit her or not.

but that is not to question the contribution of all the crews on the raid that day.

and all of them earned their honours that day.

Geoff

[NAM Updater]

Dennis never claimed to be solely responsible for the sinking and in fact unlike some people, throughout my several meeting with him he was always at pains to refer to the role played by the junior Squadron, their crews and his fellow IX(B) Squadron crews.

I think the Aussie you refer to is actually Dennis Nolan’s pilot ‘Boomer’ Tweddle; these are the next two paragraphs in the article:

“So Doug Tweddle said ‘Oh come on then lets have a look!’ ‘Let’s do a quick orbit!’ We all had a look at it but nobody was sure except me, ‘I said she’s gone over!’ and off we set for home.

Half way across the North Sea we flew across a British destroyer who strangely enough held fire. He’d identified us correctly as a Lanc and just to cheer him up we flashed a message ‘Tirpitz Sunk!’ We got a reply but you know these Naval blokes with their Aldis Lamps can go at such a speed that no one could decipher it.”

My personal pedantic take would be that technically the Tirpitz wasn’t sunk, just turned turtle and rendered in operable; but I believe that Dennis Nolan's & crews Tallboy turned the Tirpitz and at least deserve that recognition.

I also think the following Dennis Nolan’s quote sums it all up “that’s as much as you’re going to get out of me about sinking the Tirpitz!”

[old_git]

found the Aussie pilot details in my notes.

it was F/L Bruce Buckham.

he was flying the only non 9 or 617 Sqdn Lancaster on the raid.

He flew a camera equiped Lancaster of 463 Squadron RAAF from waddington.

These are his words.

"The first 2 were near misses and then pow; this was followed by 2 more in as many seconds, suddenly there was a tremendous explosion on board . The Tirpitz appeared to heave herself out of the water. carried away by this turn of events , and the suddenness of it all, we had descended to 200Ft cameras had been whirring at the task of collecting photographic evidence of the action.
we flew over it, around it and all about it, and still it sat there with dignity under a huge mushroom of smoke which plumed up a few thousand feet in the air. There were fires and more explosions on board, a huge gaping hole existed on the port side where a section had been blown out. We had been flying close around Tirpitz for 30 minutes or so and decided to call it a day so we headed out towards the mouth of the fjord. Just then the rear gunner, Eric Gierch called out "i think she's truning over" i turned back to port to have a look, and sure enough she was, so back we went again. this time we flew in at 50Ft and watched with baited breath as Tirpitz heeled over to port, ever so slowly, and gracefully."

I wholeheartedly agree that if Dennis was responsible for turning her over then he should get the credit.

But there is no evidence that this is the case.

this is a plot of the postions of bombs dropped established from photographs.


full credit to John Asmussen for the use of his fine artwork above from his website http://www.bismarck-class.dk/tirpitz/hi ... chism.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

only 2 bombs are known to have actually been direct hits on The Tirpitz.

The very first bomb dropped was by Willie Tate and is believed to be the one that penetrated the magazine causing the major explosion that ripped her side out causing the flooding.

One near miss is reported to have " sucked her sideways" but not roll her over.

The roll over was caused by flooding not by the blast of a Tallboy.

if there is any evidence that a tallboy rolled her over then i haven't seen it yet and will be happy to be corrected.

Non of the pilots or survivors have ever claimed their bomb rolled her over to my limited knowledge and the evidence does not support that as a hypothesis.

Incidentally it was a 9 sqdn bomb that disabled the Tirpitz in an earlier raid. It was the only hit of the raid and the bonb destroyed the engine room.

She was towed to Tromso to act as a static gun ship as the Germans expected an invasion of Norway and she was to be part of the defence and was never going to sail under own steam again.
so you could say that 9 sqdn put her out of the war as there was not going to be an invasion of Norway but we didn't know the extent of the damage so had to go back and do it again.

regards

Geoff

[johnhowe]

The Battle of Barking Creek Cont.

The answer was embassingly simple. The fixed radar aerials of that time , like any directional radio transmitter, threw out their beams simultaneously in opposite directions (ie North and South, East and West, as the case might be) and picked up the return signals indiscriminately.
This meant that the radar screen could show two formations apparently wingtip to wingtip when they were actually sixty miles apart : one thirty miles in front the other 30 miles behind the aerial. To avoid the obvious dangers in this, the inland side of each aerial was electronically
screened off to make the radar !Blind! inland ( thus the RAf had to rely on visual sightings from the Royal Observer Corps and their own fighters once the enemy had crossed the coast).

And of course the electronic screening had chosen this moment to fail-unnoticed.Every build up of enemy aircraft over the sea had in fact been the buildup of British Fighters inland; every plot in truth a counterplot. Given the nervous tension of the time , and the RAFs unfamiliarity with
German Aircraft, it was lucky that an hour of literally chasing each others tails produced only two
casualties.

Yet in its own way, the Battle of Barking Creek was a famous victory. a loophole in the defensive system had been discovered and was promptly plugged- without the enemy having slipped through it. Just suppose the Battle had never happened; suppose the fault had waited, say, exactly a year later to reveal itself? until 6th, September 1940.