Draken to provide Red Air training to RAF from Teesside

[Fighterfoto]

As per the RAF website, Draken to use L-159s to provide Red Air adversary training for RAF for an initial three year period with potential extension to six years:

https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/ne ... squadrons/

[teeonefixer]

Thanks. Not unexpected, but lets see how they get on. Odd they have just lost the Red Air contract at Nellis

[Blackcat1]

Whose going to take over from the RN Hawks for Fost & D school work? Will that be Draken also?

[teeonefixer]

Whose going to take over from the RN Hawks for Fost & D school work? Will that be Draken also?

The RN will still be using the Falcon 20's and supposedly improved simulation, but no contract has been launched for the attack parts, yet.

[Blackcat1]

Whose going to take over from the RN Hawks for Fost & D school work? Will that be Draken also?

The RN will still be using the Falcon 20's and supposedly improved simulation, but no contract has been launched for the attack parts, yet.

Thanks very much

[Supra]

L159e 'Honeybadgers' out of Teesside suddenly makes the previous Hawk T1's outta Leeming seem a bigger loss now! I was hoping for some Mirage or A4 action using all those spare jets Draken have, since Red-Air went back in-house at Nellis.

[teeonefixer]

L159e 'Honeybadgers' out of Teesside suddenly makes the previous Hawk T1's outta Leeming seem a bigger loss now! I was hoping for some Mirage or A4 action using all those spare jets Draken have, since Red-Air went back in-house at Nellis.

Minimum cost ! I watched a Typhoon chase a Hawk round and round over my house recently and the poor thing didn't stand a chance. At least the L159s will have some electronic threats.

[EGNV]

L159e 'Honeybadgers' out of Teesside suddenly makes the previous Hawk T1's outta Leeming seem a bigger loss now! I was hoping for some Mirage or A4 action using all those spare jets Draken have, since Red-Air went back in-house at Nellis.

At least the L159e's have a radar!

Who knows, the next 3 to 6 years may pave the way for something more interesting in the future.

[verreli]

Who knows, the next 3 to 6 years may pave the way for something more interesting in the future.

Don't bet on it. More interesting = higher cost. This doesn't fit with our low budget airforce. Thank goodness for the good old USAF.

[Ravendriver2008]

L159e 'Honeybadgers' out of Teesside suddenly makes the previous Hawk T1's outta Leeming seem a bigger loss now! I was hoping for some Mirage or A4 action using all those spare jets Draken have, since Red-Air went back in-house at Nellis.

It’s also certification issue which will not allow likes of A-4 or Mirage to fly around our skies, from both the CAa and MAa…

Cheers

[pg1610]

L159e 'Honeybadgers' out of Teesside suddenly makes the previous Hawk T1's outta Leeming seem a bigger loss now! I was hoping for some Mirage or A4 action using all those spare jets Draken have, since Red-Air went back in-house at Nellis.

It’s also certification issue which will not allow likes of A-4 or Mirage to fly around our skies, from both the CAa and MAa…

Cheers

So why is that then ?

[Alf]

L159e 'Honeybadgers' out of Teesside suddenly makes the previous Hawk T1's outta Leeming seem a bigger loss now! I was hoping for some Mirage or A4 action using all those spare jets Draken have, since Red-Air went back in-house at Nellis.

It’s also certification issue which will not allow likes of A-4 or Mirage to fly around our skies, from both the CAa and MAa…

Cheers

Even if they fly on the FAA register (or Canadian like the A-4s in Germany)? Assume the L159s will still fly under their US civil registrations and FAA rules. There was a civil Canadian registered A-4 flying around Leeming last week.

[raptor9]

I believe the CAA will not allow the Mirage, because it uses an afterburner. Not allowed in civilian hands.

[C24]

Someone posted a comment about a Typhoon training against a Hawk and easily getting the better of it. Bearing in mind the comment about CAA /afterburner, I wonder why we don’t find some aircraft that are worthy opponents for training and run them in a manner to BBMF.

. . 🛰.

[verreli]

The Hawk has a pretty good wing and can turn well for its class. In dissimilar combat against an F3 it could hold its own but against a Typhoon it can't. I'm not convinced the L159 will give a capability upgrade over the Hawk in the close in fight but its radar will give a BVR enhancement. You would need legacy F16/F18 to give a step change in aggressor capability and I just can't see the RAF ever going down that path. An option would be better cooperation with the Americans at Lakenheath although they will employ US tactics so again, not ideal and I don't consider the 493s new mount (F-35) to be a good dogfighter with its high induced drag. Having said that, in 5th gen, is 1v1 even a thing anymore?

[bizfreeq]

Not all of our potential adversaries will be using 5th,or even 4th, generation aircraft. So yes, it is still potentially 'a thing' still

[Vulture 01]

This is also being discussed on the military aircrew section of PPrune. There are a few disturbing comments on there about this.

[Ravendriver2008]

L159e 'Honeybadgers' out of Teesside suddenly makes the previous Hawk T1's outta Leeming seem a bigger loss now! I was hoping for some Mirage or A4 action using all those spare jets Draken have, since Red-Air went back in-house at Nellis.

It’s also certification issue which will not allow likes of A-4 or Mirage to fly around our skies, from both the CAa and MAa…

Cheers

Even if they fly on the FAA register (or Canadian like the A-4s in Germany)? Assume the L159s will still fly under their US civil registrations and FAA rules. There was a civil Canadian registered A-4 flying around Leeming last week.

Don’t recall Top Aces A-4 Skyhawk at Leeming …they were meant to come but couple of peeps who I know at TA, said no plans to come to UK this year…

Cheers

[Alf]

It’s also certification issue which will not allow likes of A-4 or Mirage to fly around our skies, from both the CAa and MAa…

Cheers

Even if they fly on the FAA register (or Canadian like the A-4s in Germany)? Assume the L159s will still fly under their US civil registrations and FAA rules. There was a civil Canadian registered A-4 flying around Leeming last week.

Don’t recall Top Aces A-4 Skyhawk at Leeming …they were meant to come but couple of peeps who I know at TA, said no plans to come to UK this year…

Cheers

10th March thread seems to say there was one.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=217008

[Davef68]

I believe the CAA will not allow the Mirage, because it uses an afterburner. Not allowed in civilian hands.

Not as simple as that, it depends on the level of complexity and what level of OEM/Design authority support is provided.

Use of reheat within a turbine engine does not necessarily render the aircraft Complex, as the system may consist of little more than a HighPressure pump and in cases of civil approval maximum weights achievable will be such that take-off performance would not be compromised significantly by failure of the system. For example, the MiG-17F has reheat and was accepted as intermediate. However, the required use of throttleable reheat or the requirement for reheat on the remaining engine in the event of an engine failure would render the aircraft in the Complex
category.

Aircraft with reheat or afterburner systems will be considered for flight under the CAA Permit to Fly system. The only intermediate category aircraft thus far accepted for approval with such a system fitted is the Lim-7/MiG-17 as the reheat fitted is of basic design and also not required for normal operations. Most aircraft with reheat will fall into the complex category and therefore the reheat system becomes one part of the whole aircraft that has to meet the applicable requirements under this more exacting category. A good example of this is the
SEPECAT Jaguar where the required use of throttleable reheat or the requirement for reheat on the remaining engine in the event of an engine failure renders the aircraft in the Complex category.

https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CA ... 202021.pdf

Different rules if the type has a civilian certificate of airworthiness, or indeed is operated on the military register under MAA authority (Hence why HHA were able to operate their Hunters when all the civillian ones were grounded post-Shoreham)

be curious to see if the L-159s operate on non-UK registrations, Permits or on mil serials under the MAA.