FighterControl

Germany will purchase F-35 fighter jets built by U.S. firm Lockheed Martin to replace its ageing Tornado aircraft, according to two government sources, with one of the sources saying Berlin aims to buy up to 35 of the stealth jets,” says a Reuters report dated Mar. 14, 2022. This appears to be yet another step towards a procurement of the 5th generation aircraft, after a series of rumours started circulating at the beginning of January that the F-35 option was “back on the table” (after being discarded in 2019) and another Reuters report, dating back to early February, according to which “Germany was leaning toward purchasing the F-35 but a final decision had not been taken.”

Once again, the reports have not found an official confirmation yet, although an announcement could come soon.

More here

https://theaviationist.com/2022/03/14/g ... 5-reports/

And all this against the desire of the Luftwaffe ...
Now, the USA is happy, the industry is happy because they will get billions of Euros for developing a ECR version of the Eurofighter and only the Air Force is unhappy ...

The Luftwaffe had previously said its first choice was the F-35, I am not sure that is any different today. The F-35 is arguably the best choice for the DCA mission.

So will this signal the end of the Hornet/ Super Hornet stories?

If this is true and not just rumour then what are the implications for the French.
It would look like they would follow suit with the F 35!!
I can't see any other fifth generation option!

red leader wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:03 pm

If this is true and not just rumour then what are the implications for the French.
It would look like they would follow suit with the F 35!!
I can't see any other fifth generation option!

Why would this affect France? This is to replace the German Tornados. Thought the joint French/German/Spanish project is to replace Typhoon and Rafale in the 2030s.

Unknown74 wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:55 pm

So will this signal the end of the Hornet/ Super Hornet stories?

Yes
F-35 instead of F-18, and byy the looks of it Typhoon ECR instead of EA-18.

Expect Germany will get some manufacturing out of the deal with aircraft built it Italy. Biggest mistake British Government made by not backing BAe Systems for production rights in Europe. How long before UK orders F-35A for RAF use ? Give current F-35B orders to the Royal Navy.

Doughnut wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:15 am

Expect Germany will get some manufacturing out of the deal with aircraft built it Italy. Biggest mistake British Government made by not backing BAe Systems for production rights in Europe. How long before UK orders F-35A for RAF use ? Give current F-35B orders to the Royal Navy.

The Government did back BAE Systems and R-R with F35 design, systems development, manufacture and testing. I have read it somewhere that the final assembly wasn't as lucrative or carried more risk than the "tier1" involvement they had contracted to. Building the centre-rear fuselage + empennage for every airframe is a huge undertaking. However, the US DoD and Lockheed Martin still maintain full control over the program.

The UK builds 15% of every F35 so not to shabby, I take it the 15 ECR Typhoons are in addition to 38 they have agreed to buy to replace their Tranche 1 fleet.
Shame the MoD couldn't do the same to replace our Tranche 1 fleet with Tranche 4 jets.

Is it correct that the decision to buy F-35s to replace some of the German AF's nuclear-capable Tornado aircraft is because the F-35 is cleared for that purpose, whereas the F-18 and/or Typhoon are not?

PA200 wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 15, 2022 1:03 pm

The UK builds 15% of every F35 so not to shabby, I take it the 15 ECR Typhoons are in addition to 38 they have agreed to buy to replace their Tranche 1 fleet.
Shame the MoD couldn't do the same to replace our Tranche 1 fleet with Tranche 4 jets.

Germany will buy approximately 70 Eurofighters and 35 F-35s to replace the Tornado fleet. 15 of the Eurofighters will be ECR models.

TonyO wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 15, 2022 4:52 pm

PA200 wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 15, 2022 1:03 pm

The UK builds 15% of every F35 so not to shabby, I take it the 15 ECR Typhoons are in addition to 38 they have agreed to buy to replace their Tranche 1 fleet.
Shame the MoD couldn't do the same to replace our Tranche 1 fleet with Tranche 4 jets.

Germany will buy approximately 70 Eurofighters and 35 F-35s to replace the Tornado fleet. 15 of the Eurofighters will be ECR models.

So far only 35 F-35 and 15 EF2000ECR.
And looking at different German news sites and forums it looks like that is it.
Some mentioning by high ranked military that the ECRs will join one of the 4 existing Eurofighter Geschawder (Wing).

The earlier ordered 38 Tranche 4 Eurofighters will replace the Tranche 1s.

I can't see how they will replace 93 Tornados with just 50 aircraft. If you remember, the Merkel government announced that 55 Eurofighters, 30 Super Hornets and 15 Growlers would be purchased to replace the Tornado.
Those 55 Eurofighters will be Tranche 5 jets, that's a new batch on top of the 38 Quadriga jets to replace the Tranche 1s.

TonyO wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 15, 2022 9:32 pm

I can't see how they will replace 93 Tornados with just 50 aircraft. If you remember, the Merkel government announced that 55 Eurofighters, 30 Super Hornets and 15 Growlers would be purchased to replace the Tornado.
Those 55 Eurofighters will be Tranche 5 jets, that's a new batch on top of the 38 Quadriga jets to replace the Tranche 1s.

I agree.
But they say quality over quantity...

Perhaps the RAF order some more. It would be nice but I cant see it happening

a321 wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:29 am

Perhaps the RAF order some more. It would be nice but I cant see it happening

The plan is for in excess of 48, and anything up to the original intended 138, so more orders will be pending.

Canberra TT.18 wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:20 am

TonyO wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 15, 2022 9:32 pm

I can't see how they will replace 93 Tornados with just 50 aircraft. If you remember, the Merkel government announced that 55 Eurofighters, 30 Super Hornets and 15 Growlers would be purchased to replace the Tornado.
Those 55 Eurofighters will be Tranche 5 jets, that's a new batch on top of the 38 Quadriga jets to replace the Tranche 1s.

I agree.
But they say quality over quantity...

I would guess the 93 includes the German OCU Tornado ? what ever they call it? Would they need another EF2000 OCU? I guess not so you mighty find 50 operational new jets all front line compared to what ever the Amount of aircraft Germany actually have as Frontline Tornado's,?

Mark.

markranger wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:06 pm

Canberra TT.18 wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:20 am

TonyO wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 15, 2022 9:32 pm

I can't see how they will replace 93 Tornados with just 50 aircraft. If you remember, the Merkel government announced that 55 Eurofighters, 30 Super Hornets and 15 Growlers would be purchased to replace the Tornado.
Those 55 Eurofighters will be Tranche 5 jets, that's a new batch on top of the 38 Quadriga jets to replace the Tranche 1s.

I agree.
But they say quality over quantity...

I would guess the 93 includes the German OCU Tornado ? what ever they call it? Would they need another EF2000 OCU? I guess not so you mighty find 50 operational new jets all front line compared to what ever the Amount of aircraft Germany actually have as Frontline Tornado's,?

Mark.

You right but you don't need 40 ocu aircraft.

The luftwaffe internet pages show:
TLG 51 Jagel use 37 Tornado's in Recce/naval strike and SEAD/DEAD role, about half are Tornado ECRs
TLG 33 Buchel use 46 Tornado's. That is more than the standard of around 35 aircraft the most TLGs use.
I'm not sure TLG 33 has an OCU staffel. But looking at the numbers this could be the case. The USA based OCU was disbanded some years ago.
Some of the 93 Tornados are also used in the test role at Manching with WTD 61.
Also the number of 93 might be not completely right and is some where between 85 and 93.

But looking at this everything is replaced by the 50 aircraft apart from some test aircraft and those in the Recce/naval strike role.

tm74sqn wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:23 pm

Is it correct that the decision to buy F-35s to replace some of the German AF's nuclear-capable Tornado aircraft is because the F-35 is cleared for that purpose, whereas the F-18 and/or Typhoon are not?

yes