Did you know that registration to Fighter Control is completely free and brings you lots of added features? Find out more....

Army, Navy, RAF severe cuts

A forum for discussing all things related to MILITARY AVIATION including Military Aviation news. No off-topic discussions here please.
Agent K
Posts: 913
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:50 am
Location: Nearby RAF Henlow, Bedfordshire

Re: Army, Navy, RAF severe cuts

Post by Agent K » Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:26 am

Brave New World wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:16 pm

Cummings is little more than an advisor,
A little off thread, but that is very naive thinking, and if so why was he allowed to broadcast an "apology" direct from downing street, against specific rules for spads, and why has the PM, who seems answerable to DC done all he can to hold onto him. He has well documented links with Russia, he sacked a treasury spad and had her removed by armed police, as she went against his plans to suspend parliament, a plan to restrict voting in brexit, and did this without the chancellors knowledge, he has been found in contempt of parliament, and he hates the Civil Service, of which last weekends "resignation" was the start of his politicising of the neutral Civil Service. His influence and with the PM especially is of extreme concern.

That is why, getting back on thread and back to the original discussion, his influence on MoD decisions such as his involvement here will be huge.

Sparts99
Posts: 2329
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:02 pm
Location: London/Kent

Re: Army, Navy, RAF severe cuts

Post by Sparts99 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:29 am

Well said Agent K.
In this world there's two kinds of people, my friend. Those with loaded guns, and those who dig. You dig.

User avatar
TonyO
Posts: 1087
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:52 pm
Location: Laandaaan, UK
Contact:

Re: Army, Navy, RAF severe cuts

Post by TonyO » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:32 am

Agent K wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:26 am
Brave New World wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:16 pm

Cummings is little more than an advisor,
A little off thread, but that is very naive thinking, and if so why was he allowed to broadcast an "apology" direct from downing street, against specific rules for spads, and why has the PM, who seems answerable to DC done all he can to hold onto him. He has well documented links with Russia, he sacked a treasury spad and had her removed by armed police, as she went against his plans to suspend parliament, a plan to restrict voting in brexit, and did this without the chancellors knowledge, he has been found in contempt of parliament, and he hates the Civil Service, of which last weekends "resignation" was the start of his politicising of the neutral Civil Service. His influence and with the PM especially is of extreme concern.

That is why, getting back on thread and back to the original discussion, his influence on MoD decisions such as his involvement here will be huge.
Spot on, couldn't agree more.

pug
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:24 pm

Re: Army, Navy, RAF severe cuts

Post by pug » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:54 am

Completely with you on that Agent-K. GDP predicted to be down 10% I believe this year, and with his previous cutting criticism of Defence spending in the past, there’s going to be people called to the torture chamber! Just because people wanted Brexit 😔

Phoon
Posts: 365
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:50 pm

Re: Army, Navy, RAF severe cuts

Post by Phoon » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:17 am

RubyRoo wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:27 pm
I suspect Agent K is quite right in his assumptions. They'll flout the idea of a 20k personnel reduction and then we won't all feel so bad when it's 'only' 5-10k that get removed. There was even talk of the entire Royal Marines being gotten rid of which would be insanity. Anyone who possibly thought that defence spending would increase following Brexit and now the Coronavirus is genuinely nuts.

Cuts are coming. There's no ifs or buts about it. Defence has been cut to the bone over the last 15 years so it's hard to see what they'll get rid of this time, but my guesses would be:
- HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark removed from service.
- HMS PoW put in mothballs.
- 1-3 Type 23 frigates put in mothballs.
- Delays announced in T26 and T31e procurement.
- 1 Astute class sub to be withdrawn.
- One of RAF Odiham/Benson/Northolt/Leeming to be considered for closure.
- Hercs to bite the dust?
- 48 F-35Bs announced as the final amount with the final 90 to be the 'cheaper' A model.

I'm not well versed on the Army so couldn't really comment, but I would imagine they'd be likely to be significant reductions in numbers.
From an RAF /FAA / AAC perspective I'd think the cuts will be much more severe - some examples.

Joint Helecopter Command (or whatever it's title these days is) has two MOB for each of the services, plus Netheravon and Aldergrove as satellites, expect at least half of Benson / Odiham / Middle Wallop / Culdrose and Yeovilton to go.
C130 fleet has been drastically reduced, wouldn't be surprised to see the remaining airframes retired.
48 F35Bs might be the total order. Highly unlikely that the MOD will ever get anywhere near the projected 138.
Leeming to close and 100 sqn's role to be privatised? All Hawks T1s removed from service, 736 NAS to stand down.
Withdrawal of the remaining Tranche 1 Typhoons, therefore reversing the decision of the last SDR.
Red Arrows to disband? Hugely unpopular decision, but the Hawk T1's OSD brought forward will force the issue.

page_verify
Posts: 1299
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:19 pm

Re: Army, Navy, RAF severe cuts

Post by page_verify » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:32 am

Phoon wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:17 am
Joint Helecopter Command (or whatever it's title these days is) has two MOB for each of the services, plus Netheravon and Aldergrove as satellites, expect at least half of Benson / Odiham / Middle Wallop / Culdrose and Yeovilton to go.
Completely agree, why does the RAF need Benson AND Odiham?
Phoon wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:17 am
C130 fleet has been drastically reduced, wouldn't be surprised to see the remaining airframes retired.
Completely agree, although why do we even need the C-130 at all now that A400M is operational? I recognise that C-130 can do things which A400M can't, but there are things which C-130 cannot do - we all have to make the most of what we can afford. Two reasonably similar tactical airlift aircraft is unaffordable.
Phoon wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:17 am
Leeming to close and 100 sqn's role to be privatised? All Hawks T1s removed from service, 736 NAS to stand down.
Not just Leeming, but Wittering, Cosford and the rest. Too many RAF airfields with tower and fire costs remain open yet have very few aircraft.
Phoon wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:17 am
Red Arrows to disband? Hugely unpopular decision, but the Hawk T1's OSD brought forward will force the issue.
Tough one - I can see industry offering to provide and maintain the aircraft while the pilots will become more of an extension of CFS.

Brave New World
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:41 am

Re: Army, Navy, RAF severe cuts

Post by Brave New World » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:46 am

Agent K wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:26 am
Brave New World wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:16 pm

Cummings is little more than an advisor,
A little off thread, but that is very naive thinking, and if so why was he allowed to broadcast an "apology" direct from downing street, against specific rules for spads, and why has the PM, who seems answerable to DC done all he can to hold onto him. He has well documented links with Russia, he sacked a treasury spad and had her removed by armed police, as she went against his plans to suspend parliament, a plan to restrict voting in brexit, and did this without the chancellors knowledge, he has been found in contempt of parliament, and he hates the Civil Service, of which last weekends "resignation" was the start of his politicising of the neutral Civil Service. His influence and with the PM especially is of extreme concern.

That is why, getting back on thread and back to the original discussion, his influence on MoD decisions such as his involvement here will be huge.

Defence Secretary Ben Wallace has labelled the media reports as nonsense, and stated that any review will not be based on finance but on threats.

As for Cummings he's merely an advisor, and it's the men in suits at the 1922 Committee who decide Johnson fate and not Cummings.

Furthermore the review is being led by Sir Alex Ellis and not Cummings.

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk- ... s-concern/
Last edited by Brave New World on Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:13 am, edited 3 times in total.

Canberra TT.18
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue May 26, 2015 9:11 pm

Re: Army, Navy, RAF severe cuts

Post by Canberra TT.18 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:52 am

Hi.

About Red Arrows.
The whole idea of large demonstration teams (with jets) in Europe will be gone in 5 to 10 years.
Spain C101 and France Alpha Jets both replaced by PC21 in few years. Poland TS11 don't see them using M346 by demo team.
Switzerland F-5s gone by 2025-2030, they won't use a new fighter for the role.
Only italy have decided to buy a jet replacement.

About the Hercules fleet funny that Germany and France both have ordered a small combined to be used fleet. And both have much larger fleets of A400s (on order). So it is all about money and priorities what you need, want and can afford.

And less operational aircraft means less required training aircraft!

Pieter

Brave New World
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:41 am

Re: Army, Navy, RAF severe cuts

Post by Brave New World » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:54 am

Phoon wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:17 am
Leeming to close and 100 sqn's role to be privatised? All Hawks T1s removed from service, 736 NAS to stand down.
Not just Leeming, but Wittering, Cosford and the rest. Too many RAF airfields with tower and fire costs remain open yet have very few aircraft.
Leeming is now a signals hub, and the region is also home to Boulmer (radar) and Spadeadam range. No.1 Air Control Centre is moving from Scampton to Leeming to join the well established signals hub that is now at Leeming.

Leeming is also the only active military airfield in the North East of England and the closure of Linton on Ouse, will mean other than Leeming there is very little between Waddington near Lincoln and Lossiemouth in the Scottish Highlands.

Wittering is a logitics hub, and won't be vastly effected.

Whilst Cosford is to expand, as the planned joint tri-service hub as St Athan was abandoned, and St Athan is now being sold off, with Aston Martin having moved in to the vast empty hangar space.

Cosford will now be the RAF's technical training centre, whilst Shwawbury will be helicopter training and Valley fixed wing.

Waddington is expanding as well and Cranwell is to eventually to see all basic recruit training moved to it when Halton finally closes.

The main RAF bases are Coningsby, Marham, Lossiemouth, Waddington and Brize Norton, the support bases are Leeming and Wittering, and the Helicopter bases are Benson and Odiham.

The only bases under threat are helicopter, and the MoD would receive a far higher price for land in Southern England than elsewhere, the other base under threat is possibly Wattisham with the Army also reviewing it's helicopter basing.

As for the rest of the cuts, it's all conjecture and Defence Secretary Ben Wallace has now gone on the record and called the media reports nonsense.

page_verify
Posts: 1299
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:19 pm

Re: Army, Navy, RAF severe cuts

Post by page_verify » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:12 am

Agree, but few of those ground roles require a large almost abandoned airfield.

SeaFuryFan
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:40 pm

Re: Army, Navy, RAF severe cuts

Post by SeaFuryFan » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:27 am

I did hear a rumour that 736 Squadron would disband ! and 100 Squadron would take over the tasking from Culdrose. I believe a number of 100 Squadron hawks would fly down to Culdrose for the week, complete the tasking in the south west, then return to Leeming at the end of the week.

pug
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:24 pm

Re: Army, Navy, RAF severe cuts

Post by pug » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:25 pm

With ASDOT cancelled last year, will the end of 100 sqn in a few years signal the end of dissimilar training?

Please do not be naive to the influence Cummings has over the current government, even with the 1922 committee accepted! Of course it’s all nonsense til it’s officially announced, and the UK’s role as a military power is diminished - a statement of intent completely.

User avatar
Tally-ho
Posts: 353
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:12 am
Location: East Midlands

Re: Army, Navy, RAF severe cuts

Post by Tally-ho » Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:18 pm

The days of huge armies footslogging through mud, of navies sailing the seven seas, of hundreds of wood and canvas aircraft rumbling through the sky are over! The new battlefield is right amongst us all, right now, it's called germ warfare or China virus (Covid 19 if you like to sound posh). There is also the hidden battlefield of software viruses, hacking into computer hard drives, the destruction of data bases and other IT (Information Technology) related 'warfare'. These are the wars of today and tomorrow.

NATO also comes into the permutation. Furthermore, the UK will soon have a thorough, very modern, and very capable carrier strike force. The UK constantly exercises and participates with the USA in all manner and means of military deployments. The USA is still the only superpower, economic and military, and the UK has a friend in the White House until 2024.

Boris is Boss with a huge majority and will be around until at least 2029 - that battle was convincingly, by a landslide, won in December 2019.

How green is my valley!

Agent K
Posts: 913
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:50 am
Location: Nearby RAF Henlow, Bedfordshire

Re: Army, Navy, RAF severe cuts

Post by Agent K » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:21 pm

Tally-ho wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:18 pm
The days of huge armies footslogging through mud, of navies sailing the seven seas, of hundreds of wood and canvas aircraft rumbling through the sky are over! The new battlefield is right amongst us all, right now, it's called germ warfare or China virus (Covid 19 if you like to sound posh). There is also the hidden battlefield of software viruses, hacking into computer hard drives, the destruction of data bases and other IT (Information Technology) related 'warfare'. These are the wars of today and tomorrow.

NATO also comes into the permutation. Furthermore, the UK will soon have a thorough, very modern, and very capable carrier strike force. The UK constantly exercises and participates with the USA in all manner and means of military deployments. The USA is still the only superpower, economic and military, and the UK has a friend in the White House until 2024.

Boris is Boss with a huge majority and will be around until at least 2029 - that battle was convincingly, by a landslide, won in December 2019.

How green is my valley!

I've only heard Drumpf call it "China Virus" so lets not repeat that nastiness here, unless of course we rename Spanish Flu to Kansas Flu etc etc.....

And I think you'll find the terms of office are only 5 years not 10? and when reality of a no-deal Brexit, and it's delightful lowering of standards and protection across the board sink in, and pandemic after effects I suspect the vastly more intelligent Kier Starmer will be quite appealing after 5 years.....

tm74sqn
Posts: 1125
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:27 pm
Location: Oxfordshire

Re: Army, Navy, RAF severe cuts

Post by tm74sqn » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:27 pm

pug wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:54 am
Completely with you on that Agent-K. GDP predicted to be down 10% I believe this year, and with his previous cutting criticism of Defence spending in the past, there’s going to be people called to the torture chamber! Just because people wanted Brexit 😔
I blame Covid-19 for reduction in GDP - nothing to do with brexit. The remoaners will always try to blame the democratic will of the British people for any problems!

pug
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:24 pm

Re: Army, Navy, RAF severe cuts

Post by pug » Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:17 pm

tm74sqn wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:27 pm
pug wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:54 am
Completely with you on that Agent-K. GDP predicted to be down 10% I believe this year, and with his previous cutting criticism of Defence spending in the past, there’s going to be people called to the torture chamber! Just because people wanted Brexit 😔
I blame Covid-19 for reduction in GDP - nothing to do with brexit. The remoaners will always try to blame the democratic will of the British people for any problems!
Wasn’t blaming Brexit for the GDP drop due to Covid. I was blaming the election of Boris and his master on people wanting Brexit. Didn’t really wish to get get into that old debate but for the record, Brexit has already had an impact on my former colleagues at a large aviation company I worked for, with redundancies already having happened prior to this crisis - but it’s ok cos ‘democracy’.

I’m not about to discuss the democratic process - it’s quite clear that the armchair experts who came out of the woodwork during the past 4 years don’t have a grasp on our political system. Should teach that in school, along with U.K. post-war socio-economic and political history and not just how ‘we’ won the war.

User avatar
TonyO
Posts: 1087
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:52 pm
Location: Laandaaan, UK
Contact:

Re: Army, Navy, RAF severe cuts

Post by TonyO » Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:30 pm

My take on this, a bit of devil's advocate
Joint Helicopter Command (or whatever it's title these days is) has two MOB for each of the services, plus Netheravon and Aldergrove as satellites, expect at least half of Benson / Odiham / Middle Wallop / Culdrose and Yeovilton to go.
A consolidation of JHC bases has been on the cards for some time, with proposals to move a lot of helicopters to Boscombe Down, its not clear if anything has come of this, but will probably feature in the review. Benson would certainly be an attract sell off in terms of land values in Oxfordshire, same with Odiham, but cannot see Yeovilton or Culdrose going. I'd argue Netheravon doesn't really figure in the plans, its pretty dilapidated infrastrcuture up there these days.
C130 fleet has been drastically reduced, wouldn't be surprised to see the remaining airframes retired.
I am struggling to see a complete retirement of the C-130J fleet, still heavily utilised by SF and given the issues with A400M, there is a shortage of tactical transport.
48 F35Bs might be the total order. Highly unlikely that the MOD will ever get anywhere near the projected 138.
Agreed, Tempest will have a part to play in this too, will be buying less from the US in the future given the volatile, emerging market standard pound that we now have since Brexit.
Leeming to close and 100 sqn's role to be privatised? All Hawks T1s removed from service, 736 NAS to stand down.
Leeming is more than just 100 Sqn and an airfield, lots of interesting RAF units based there, and its a strategically useful airfield.
Withdrawal of the remaining Tranche 1 Typhoons, therefore reversing the decision of the last SDR.
Can't see this, unless the UK opts for additional Tranche 3/4 jets, which is unlikely too. Too many demands on the fleet. But never say never.
Red Arrows to disband? Hugely unpopular decision, but the Hawk T1's OSD brought forward will force the issue.
Red Arrows, never until they have to replace the Hawk, a political black hole for any party that does it, and not much of a financial saving all in all.

User avatar
TonyO
Posts: 1087
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:52 pm
Location: Laandaaan, UK
Contact:

Re: Army, Navy, RAF severe cuts

Post by TonyO » Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:34 pm

pug wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:17 pm
tm74sqn wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:27 pm
pug wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:54 am
Completely with you on that Agent-K. GDP predicted to be down 10% I believe this year, and with his previous cutting criticism of Defence spending in the past, there’s going to be people called to the torture chamber! Just because people wanted Brexit 😔
I blame Covid-19 for reduction in GDP - nothing to do with brexit. The remoaners will always try to blame the democratic will of the British people for any problems!
Wasn’t blaming Brexit for the GDP drop due to Covid. I was blaming the election of Boris and his master on people wanting Brexit. Didn’t really wish to get get into that old debate but for the record, Brexit has already had an impact on my former colleagues at a large aviation company I worked for, with redundancies already having happened prior to this crisis - but it’s ok cos ‘democracy’.

I’m not about to discuss the democratic process - it’s quite clear that the armchair experts who came out of the woodwork during the past 4 years don’t have a grasp on our political system. Should teach that in school, along with U.K. post-war socio-economic and political history and not just how ‘we’ won the war.
The problem is that the drop in GDP caused by Brexit will be masked by the impact of COVID, but the UK will come out of COVID much worse off than the rest of Europe, possibly worse than some Eastern European countries. This pursuit of no-deal by Boris et al, is worryingly dangerous.

RubyRoo
Posts: 254
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:30 pm

Re: Army, Navy, RAF severe cuts

Post by RubyRoo » Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:45 pm

Tally-ho wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:18 pm
The days of huge armies footslogging through mud, of navies sailing the seven seas, of hundreds of wood and canvas aircraft rumbling through the sky are over! The new battlefield is right amongst us all, right now, it's called germ warfare or China virus (Covid 19 if you like to sound posh). There is also the hidden battlefield of software viruses, hacking into computer hard drives, the destruction of data bases and other IT (Information Technology) related 'warfare'. These are the wars of today and tomorrow.

NATO also comes into the permutation. Furthermore, the UK will soon have a thorough, very modern, and very capable carrier strike force. The UK constantly exercises and participates with the USA in all manner and means of military deployments. The USA is still the only superpower, economic and military, and the UK has a friend in the White House until 2024.

Boris is Boss with a huge majority and will be around until at least 2029 - that battle was convincingly, by a landslide, won in December 2019.

How green is my valley!
Technology is now an overwhelming influence in the battlespace, but conventional forces still have a huge part to play. Further reductions make us less able to influence and assist NATO forces involved in whatever conflict.

China is a superpower, economically and militarily. (Although admittedly still some way behind the US/NATO in some aspects).

A modern and capable carrier strike force for sure, but at the expense of what? 2 destroyers, 2 frigates and a sub removed from other commitments around the world vastly reduces the sphere of influence that a new "Global Britain" would like to project, especially if some of these vessels are removed from service due to cuts.

Possible Trump may see a second term, but it's looking increasingly unlikely as we approach November. Regardless, the UK will continue to have an ally in the USA long past 2024.

Boris is the furthest thing possible from being "Boss" :lol:. Nothing is certain in politics in this country, especially since 2016. Your bold claim will fit nicely next to your tin foiled lined MAGA hat though. I'm sure you're also one of the proponents that defence spending (and everything else) will see a large uptick with Brexit too ;) - don't let facts get in the way.

RubyRoo
Posts: 254
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:30 pm

Re: Army, Navy, RAF severe cuts

Post by RubyRoo » Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:52 pm

tm74sqn wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:27 pm
pug wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:54 am
Completely with you on that Agent-K. GDP predicted to be down 10% I believe this year, and with his previous cutting criticism of Defence spending in the past, there’s going to be people called to the torture chamber! Just because people wanted Brexit 😔
I blame Covid-19 for reduction in GDP - nothing to do with brexit. The remoaners will always try to blame the democratic will of the British people for any problems!
TonyO has already written a great response to this, so there's little else that I wish to add, however the pursuit of a no deal is incredibly worrying. There have already been substantial loss of businesses and jobs due to us leaving the EU and once the transition is over, there will be a lot more.

What was the democratic will of the "British" people, tm74sqn? Was it to leave the EU without a deal?

Have a read of this and let me know which ones turned out to be accurate.

https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit- ... on-8846041
Last edited by RubyRoo on Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply

Return to “The Fighter Control Mess”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Pen Pusher, raameagle and 37 guests