Aurora real or not

[Sheff]

Guess that's the nature of Black projects - they're secret! I'm sure Aurora did/does exist but what it is? That's anybody's guess. Doubtless there are many other Black projects too, but until the US Government chooses to reveal them, one might as well forget about 'em, as they're obviously going to be remain shrouded in secrecy. The growing security perimeter around Groom Lake obviously indicates that there are aerial vehicles there that are intentionally kept from public scrutiny, otherwise there'd be no point in wasting resources on keeping people so far away from the base. On the other hand, there could be some sort of "bluff" going-on here in that there might actually be nothing to hide, but the overt security creates the impression that there is (which is good for military and foreign policy), and of course there's at least one other airfield site which is even more secret than Groom Lake, so maybe the really interesting stuff operates there, and Groom Lake is merely the "public face of secrecy" if you like...

[Rainbow 6]

Hi chaps

I remember reading some where that the Aurora project, was the B-2 project when it was in the world of black, and the reason that the B-2 didnt stay black as long as the have blue project which became the f-117 was because of the size of the B-2 and it was a little harder to hide than a fighter size aircraft.

all the best
rainbow

[Hurn]

Aurora in this sense though is more aligned to the supposed 'black' hypersonic aircraft that was rumoured to be around in the late eighties and nineties. The donughts on a rope contrails being one of it's characteristics which led to much speculation on it's propultion system.

There was one credible observation of what some believe to have been the fabled aircraft by Chris Gibson from a North Sea oil platform in about 1989.
I believe Chris was (or had been) in the Royal Observer Corps and saw a formation overhead consisting of 1 x KC135, 2 x F111's and a mysterious triangular shaped aircraft that he himself could not identify nor could subsequently identify from any books. In turn that led to speculation about the mystery aircraft operating from RAF Machrihanish, but apart from rumour nothing to this day has been proven and is unlikely to be.

It's one of those subjects that can provide interesting reading, but ultimately you'll end up with no concrete prove it exists and never will unless the USA decides to release the relevant information.

[TankBuster]

There was one credible observation of what some believe to have been the fabled aircraft by Chris Gibson from a North Sea oil platform in about 1989.
I believe Chris was (or had been) in the Royal Observer Corps and saw a formation overhead consisting of 1 x KC135, 2 x F111's and a mysterious triangular shaped aircraft.

Interesting point this one as I remember around the early 90's there were reports in the local newspapers that people had seen triangular aircraft off of the Essex coast near to Clacton on Sea. There were several eye witnesses to these sightings, but from what I remember they never got explained so still remain a mystery.


TankBuster

[PR9]

Its a fact that satellites are and never will be as fast or flexible as an aircraft for gathering up to date and accurate reconnaissance information.
So, in theory, something has to have replaced the Blackbird.

[Sheff]

That photo you mention certainly got more than its fair share of fame. It's generally accepted to be a fake though, regardless of the alleged credentials of the observer. I also suspect it's a fake, not least because I can't imagine any reason why such sight would have ever occurred. Apart from the odd location and altitude, there's also the question of why such a mysterious aircraft would require AAR (particularly in that location) and why it would be flying in formation with F-111s. I think it follows that if we even suppose that the aircraft was operating with an F-111 unit at the time (perhaps in the way that A-7s were used as part of the F-117 set-up) then surely the aircraft would have been seen elsewhere too - wherever the F-111s were operating from? Even stretching credibility leaves you with the impression that none of it adds up!

Likewise, the "doughnuts" story was also a bit misleading. It was claimed that the contrail was unique and peculiar to some unknown propulsion system but that really isn't true. In the right weather conditions you can get a very similar contrail from a conventional jet engine. Besides, if the contrail was so distinctive, how come it was never seen again? Presumably the mystery aircraft didn't make only one high-altitude flight?!

I agree that all the stories do make interesting reading and personally I'd be delighted if even some of the stories were true, but I fear that all of the stories are more concerned with selling books and column inches in magazines and papers, more than anything else. Naturally, these stories have a life of their own these days, now that the internet enables every nutter to repeat them and elaborate on them without so much as a second of serious consideration. As you say Hurn, we will never know anything about secret projects - that's the very nature of the term! Some will recall that the F-117 was first captured on film by investigative photographers but of course this was undoubtedly done with the full expectation of the USAF, CIA and so on. Flying the aircraft around Nevada during the day pretty-much guaranteed that it would be photographed somewhere. Simple truth of the matter is if the project is truly secret, it is precisely that! I never cease to marvel at how so many self-appointed investigators imagine that they have somehow managed to out-wit the CIA, USAF and US Government and stumbled-upon so many fantastic stories. All bonkers of course!

Ps- I agree entirely PR9 with the belief that some sort of reconnaissance system might exist or at least ought to exist. But maybe current thinking is that drones are more than capable of handling the deficiencies of satellite systems?

[Hurn]

That photo you mention certainly got more than its fair share of fame. It's generally accepted to be a fake though, regardless of the alleged credentials of the observer. I also suspect it's a fake, not least because I can't imagine any reason why such sight would have ever occurred. Apart from the odd location and altitude, there's also the question of why such a mysterious aircraft would require AAR (particularly in that location) and why it would be flying in formation with F-111s. I think it follows that if we even suppose that the aircraft was operating with an F-111 unit at the time (perhaps in the way that A-7s were used as part of the F-117 set-up) then surely the aircraft would have been seen elsewhere too - wherever the F-111s were operating from? Even stretching credibility leaves you with the impression that none of it adds up!

What photo? I didn't mention one, nor have seen one of that incident. I recall seeing Chris Gibsons sketch which frankly didn't look like anything other than a black triangle drawn on a piece of paper.

As a witness he's about the most credible and there's no real reason to disbelieve him when he says it wasn't anything he knew of. Was it actually the Aurora though? No-one can verify that question for certain.

[Hurn]

Lol, hardly the most convincing piece of photography, although quality wise it's up there with some of the grainy and blurry stuff I seem to produce.

[TankBuster]

On the subject of doughnut contrails they do seem to be quite common...

Living close to the River Colne estuary & the Thames estuary I do see a huge amount of civil (sorry I mentioned that 'C' word) flights over this part of Essex coming & going to & from the London airports. There are also a lot of overflights too & doughnut contrails are a common sight over here.


TankBuster

[Sheff]

To be fair, the photo posted above was rather better in its original form, but yes I agree that it is pretty unconvincing. Given the positioning of the tanker and F-111s, anyone could be forgiven for thinking that it's an air show shot, suitably manipulated...

[Martin Jennings]

Just to add my six'penneth, Anyone remember the alleged flights that were picked up over the SW USA some time ago now and were calling "gaspipe 71 & 72" and apparently had an insane turn of speed on there way into Edwards AFB? These were rumoured to be 2X TR3 Aurora's at the time.

[crashman]

there was a rumor about on a forum that i used to browse about a black triangle, opperating around the Mull of Kintire at the time of the chinook crash, leading to a vale of secrecy, and the pilots of the chinook being blamed for the crash. there is suposed to be super secret bases hidden up everywhere on the nellis ranges and ATC controllers from the area reporting all sorts of strange stuff, Anyone for Dale Brown..........

[sschofield]

These were rumoured to be 2X TR3 Aurora's at the time.

Remember reading (a few years ago) that the "TR-3" was likely to be a "Tier-3" mod state of a "drone" (as they were known before the term "UAV" had been coined), possibly the "Black Manta" rumoured to be operating out of Groom Lake/Area 51/ Watertown Airstrip/The Box/The Ranch (take your pick regarding names for the facility that I think officially still doesn't exist!)

There was an article in Aircraft Illustrated at the height of these stories interviewing 2 guys that claimed to have seen the "Aurora" (whatever THAT is!) taxy out and take off at Groom, but hey, guess what, they were so transfixed on getting their poles on the thing, they forgot to take any photos! I mean , seriously, come on guys, let's get real here?

[von_trippenhopf]

The Belgian 'flying triangle' is quite an interesting case with the Police and Airforce chasing around the countryside trying to find out what was going on.
I seem to remember quite a good TV program with witness interviews, radar 'sightings' and reports from the authorities and it basically came to the conclusion that there
was enough evidence that something had been flying about, but they had no idea what it was. Spooky

[Flyingmonster]

Not directly linked But his is an interesting read -

http://www.dreamlandresort.com/black_pr ... scombe.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mods if not suitable for the thread please remove

[Sheff]

Ahh yes, the many stories of exotic aircraft flying out of Machrihanish. Strange how nobody ever managed to grab so much as one snapshot though! Then there was the mystery plane being loaded onto a transport at Boscombe Down. Again, no photo oddly enough, but even if it was a carefully-guarded sensitive aircraft, one can only imagine that it was probably a reconnaissance drone or something like that. If it was anything more, you'd think that it would have been revealed to the public by now.

I can accept that getting photos of Groom Lake is a real challenge now (the distances are so great) but if there was anything exotic to see, it seems reasonable to suppose that someone would have taken the time to go and get a shot, even if it was only a distant shape. It would be a guaranteed money-making picture, therefore someone would surely have done it by now. It seems far more likely that the unusual aircraft at Groom lake are merely conventional aircraft from unusual sources (ie Sukois and so on). All very interesting for us, but commercially of no interest to any "sensationalist" magazine.

Clearly, secrets are secret by definition. The really interesting stuff is hidden from view, probably out in one of the even more obscure airfields in the Nellis range. UFO's might be evidence of alien visitors or then again they might not. I'm open to persuasion on that subject. But as for exotic aerial vehicles, I just don't accept the notion that any such machines have been seen (or photographed) by accident. If they exist and they are indeed secret, they'll be staying well away from open air space, or flying only at night. Anyone who thinks differently has been watching far too many sci-fi movies!

[turbosix]

Mac played host to some UAV test flights a few years ago, but it wasn't particularly a secret. Infact there was NOTAMs published about it.

As for Aurora itself, I don't really buy into it. An aircraft that flies Mach 6 on the edge of space. Really we're talking about a space-plane. A platform capable of taking off from a convensional runway, flying into space, and then return to base. If this technology really did exist, think of the implications. It could be used to freight satellites into earth's orbit without the need for rocket launches. It would have changed the face of space flight as we know it today. I think what is more likely is Aurora is a ghost-plane of the cold war. It's suggested SCRAM jet engines is probably the most unbelievable part of the mythology that surrounds this aircraft. NASA only last year were conducting SCRAM jet tests, which seems strange if we are to believe that the Aurora has been using it since the 1980s.

[Sheff]

Mac played host to some UAV test flights a few years ago, but it wasn't particularly a secret.

Precisely! But we were supposed to imagine that bizarre top-secret reconnaissance aircraft had inexplicably operated there without anyone even noticing. A likely story!

[graham luxton]

There was one credible observation of what some believe to have been the fabled aircraft by Chris Gibson from a North Sea oil platform in about 1989.
I believe Chris was (or had been) in the Royal Observer Corps and saw a formation overhead consisting of 1 x KC135, 2 x F111's and a mysterious triangular shaped aircraft.

Interesting point this one as I remember around the early 90's there were reports in the local newspapers that people had seen triangular aircraft off of the Essex coast near to Clacton on Sea. There were several eye witnesses to these sightings, but from what I remember they never got explained so still remain a mystery.

I remember these as well TB because I saw several F-117A's depart from Lakenheath on their way back home from the Gulf! They all routed South to North through the Clacton area while inbound to Lakenheath.
Graham

[graham luxton]

Aurora in this sense though is more aligned to the supposed 'black' hypersonic aircraft that was rumoured to be around in the late eighties and nineties. The donughts on a rope contrails being one of it's characteristics which led to much speculation on it's propultion system.

There was one credible observation of what some believe to have been the fabled aircraft by Chris Gibson from a North Sea oil platform in about 1989.
I believe Chris was (or had been) in the Royal Observer Corps and saw a formation overhead consisting of 1 x KC135, 2 x F111's and a mysterious triangular shaped aircraft that he himself could not identify nor could subsequently identify from any books. In turn that led to speculation about the mystery aircraft operating from RAF Machrihanish, but apart from rumour nothing to this day has been proven and is unlikely to be.
.

I suggest that the North Sea observation was nothing more exciting than a flight of three F-111's, one of which had its wings in the fully swept postion at the request of someone on the KC-135. Although the full sweep was not part of the air refueling procedure some pilots would agree to do this for photography. I know this because I've asked them to do this myself and this is what I believe Chris saw.
Graham