FighterControl

https://theaviationist.com/2019/08/04/f ... n-airshow/

Would you let this guy borrow your F16? Maintenance issue? Or are the F16"s in the USAF getting a bit old and fragile?

If this is their attitude then I’m not surprised

“It does happen occasionally. It’s just normal operating for an F-16, or any aircraft really. Sometimes latches fail,” USAF F-16 Viper Demo Team Commander Major Garrett Schmitz, callsign “Toro”, told TheAviationist.com in an interview on Saturday at Thunder Over Michigan. “Essentially what happened yesterday was, a latch failed, and the panel came off. While it’s not common, I would say it’s not un-common. It’s nothing that we’re concerned about. It’s something that happens, it’s part of flying, we fix the jet and move on.”


Really?


It would become concerning if said panel fell and hit someone or hit one of his family on the ground. Shocked that the Team Commander came out with that statement.

As bad as what the guys at their demo tent said at RIAT:

"Well they really don't like our take off, but we keep doing it because we love it!!"

You ask me it's just pure arrogance. Not really surprised with that response to be honest. There's having a good display, and there's being far too aggressive with it and breaking jets.

For me the demonstration pilot is there to demonstrate what the jet can do and maintenance are there to make sure the jet can do it.

slogen51 wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:49 pm

For me the demonstration pilot is there to demonstrate what the jet can do and maintenance are there to make sure the jet can do it.

You missed the word "safely"

Exactly, safely. By being arrogant about it, it doesn't help.

I still can't agree with your sentiments , fighter pilots trained to kill on our behalf are a different breed - that is one of the draws of a military airshow. Anyhow the pilot is only making manoeuvres that are inside the flight envelope - he/she has been selected for their expertise and suitability to fly to the limit to gratify the audience. Therefore if the plane breaks it is down to maintenance or some more learning is required related to age and materials fatigue.

I have read several strange posts on here where people complain a certain display was boring and now we don't like it when the pilot demonstrates what they have been trained to do.

I know someone will mention Shoreham but to me that is a different issue to do with pilot skills.

Or, in the case of RIAT, put too much stress on that airframe during a take off causing the issue and almost dropping the jet on a campsite...

slogen51 wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:41 pm

I still can't agree with your sentiments , fighter pilots trained to kill on our behalf are a different breed - that is one of the draws of a military airshow. Anyhow the pilot is only making manoeuvres that are inside the flight envelope - he/she has been selected for their expertise and suitability to fly to the limit to gratify the audience. Therefore if the plane breaks it is down to maintenance or some more learning is required related to age and materials fatigue.

I have read several strange posts on here where people complain a certain display was boring and now we don't like it when the pilot demonstrates what they have been trained to do.

I know someone will mention Shoreham but to me that is a different issue to do with pilot skills.

An air display shouldn't cause delamination of material - if there is a fatigue issue or imposed G limit to avoid overstressing the aircraft then the air display should be toned down to reflect that.

All air displays should be flown with safety in mind, if parts are flying off, then clearly there is either something wrong with the aircraft, or poor maintenance.

I don't know, but I would've thought that an air display doesn't take the aircraft or pilot to the limit, since that would be dangerous.

We were not in the cockpit but I don't agree with saying the pilot overstressed the aircraft - he/she would have been flying the same authorized display at many airshows in previous years.

You are implying there is an imposed documented G limit that the pilot deliberately exceeded? I did not know that so I will leave it at that.

It's not the first time the USAF Viper Team have done this, probably won't be the last, no matter the jet they fly.

slogen51 wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:56 pm

We were not in the cockpit but I don't agree with saying the pilot overstressed the aircraft - he/she would have been flying the same authorized display at many airshows in previous years.

You are implying there is an imposed documented G limit that the pilot deliberately exceeded? I did not know that so I will leave it at that.

I'm not saying that at all, I was referring to your statement that the pilot doing an air display takes the aircraft to the limit.

The F-16 at RIAT had delamination occur, not overstressed as far as we know. The panel that flew off - well thats probably material malfunction or poor maintenance.

I know these pilots are professional aviators, but over stressing at an airshow can happen to the best pilots. Take Major Jim Jiggens (Ex Thunderbirds) display at Mildenhall that effectively snapped the back of an SR-71 973 which was ferried back to Palmdale and never flew again - now there's no doubt he was an extremely professional pilot due to the qualification process, but mistakes happen. Thats all I'm saying. I never said it was deliberate, and never said that the F-16 pilot over stressed it - the investigations will determine what actually happened.

All I was saying about the G limit is that I doubt an airshow pilot will get too close to the G limit of the aircraft because it's not safe or necessary to do so - why put the pilot and aircraft at risk, it's still possible to show off an aircraft without pushing it's limits.

One thing that stands out for me here is this is the same USAF Demo team that very publicly ousted it’s first choice of pilot/leader earlier in the year due to a “loss of confidence”. Looks like the whole team management should be under the spotlight.


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc. ... a-47219253

I agree with you then Quid

I thought we were saying the pilot was arrogant and and had no regard to procedures. I agree the pilot will be within limits or closer to them than when in normal day to day operations - I don't suppose F-16C/F-15C pilots have to use Immelmann manoeuvres below 1000' very often out side of a show but full afterburner take off and going vertical is common with F-15 ops at Lakenheath - it's what they do.

I watched that program on the Typhoon display pilot last year and I think and he was working very hard in his g-suit.

Thunder wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:24 pm

One thing that stands out for me here is this is the same USAF Demo team that very publicly ousted it’s first choice of pilot/leader earlier in the year due to a “loss of confidence”. Looks like the whole team management should be under the spotlight.


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc. ... a-47219253

The "loss of confidence" issue you refer to had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the pilot's flying skills/ability, the F-16 display or the aircraft.

James Cutting wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:45 pm

Or, in the case of RIAT, put too much stress on that airframe during a take off causing the issue and almost dropping the jet on a campsite...

Really, the jet almost dropped on the campsite? Over exaggeration? Much?

Nope. Not really, he was losing height but recovered on the Saturday if you see the video.

I was calling the demo team at the stall arrogant, seeing as they know they don't like them performing that take off but still do it "because they can".

Rich H wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:51 pm

Thunder wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:24 pm

One thing that stands out for me here is this is the same USAF Demo team that very publicly ousted it’s first choice of pilot/leader earlier in the year due to a “loss of confidence”. Looks like the whole team management should be under the spotlight.


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc. ... a-47219253

The "loss of confidence" issue you refer to had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the pilot's flying skills/ability, the F-16 display or the aircraft.

Never said it did, what I’m saying is that the team obviously have issues when it comes to standards including one rule for some and another rule for others. For any commander to say that losing a panel in flight is of no concern is beggars belief, and since hearing of the remarks made by Team personnel during RIAT, which were along the lines of “we don’t care if the authorities don’t like our display as we do” shows complete arrogance and failure of any sort of command structure.

If everything in this thread is true, they are heading for bigger trouble...

The F16 was being flown well within its design capability, the most likely reason for the panel dropping off is a maintenance error or as suggested by the pilot, some form of breakage of its fixings. Either way it was just a matter of time when it departed company with the jet. The tail delamination at Fairford was most likely a materials failure that was exposed by the high g manoeuvring during the display. Having watched F16s at RIAT since 1985 nothing in the USAF demo at Fairford was extreme or pushing the envelope and in comparison with demos by the European teams over the years (including the recent Belgian, Greek, Dutch and Turkish displays) it was pretty pedestrian. Fast jet pilots are arrogant just like racing drivers, it goes with the job