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WK163 Canberra?

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Vulcan74
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WK163 Canberra?

Post by Vulcan74 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:01 pm

Evening All

I Know this maybe a sore subject for some and been talked about a hundred times over. But after reading the latest VTST newsletter in which they say they have lost confidence in the private investor who was supposedly going to support them for the new hangar of XH558 & WK163 Canberra and now looking for another investor to fund this project.

Maybe they should be looking in another direction which is to house the Canberra & Vulcan in a purpose built hangar, but forget about doing engine runs on XH558 & getting the Canberra airworthy again, but just keep these as a museum piece & education centre and save an awful lot of money!!

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jakdaw
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Re: WK163 Canberra?

Post by jakdaw » Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:15 pm

It is always emotive when VTTS et al are discussed. But agree the Canberra looks a long way from being a flyer, with less air shows to display it at, rising insurance costs, lack of corporate interest and without the Joe Public pull of the Vulcan its tricky to see what the next step is. With no Hangar currently and struggling for funding to house the Vulcan, Canberra and Swift (if its still there?!?) much as I love the vision of an educational centre championing UK engineering to inspire younger generations, I struggle to see a successful, self sustaining attraction. I am really hoping for the best but at a quickly expanding airport, which is becoming more cargo centric (and the need more space if it/as it increases), I worry!

As too housing them as museum pieces, an air museum with two aircraft sounds a bit sparse! :)

Graham
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Re: WK163 Canberra?

Post by Graham » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:03 pm

I read recently the Swift has departed, anyone know to where?

Supra
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Re: WK163 Canberra?

Post by Supra » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:31 pm

Clearly it took flight to a different location where it's unlikely to get auctioned-off to pay the boyz bills for another few months? :whistle:

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Rubberneck
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Re: WK163 Canberra?

Post by Rubberneck » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:48 am

The Swift was only on loan to VTTS on the proviso that it was kept hangared after all the time, effort and money it took to get it back to pristine condition. AS they were unable to keep to their side of the bargain and with no sign of a new hangar the owners lost patience and took their aircraft back to a private location in the North West of England, but exactly where I do not know.

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Richard B
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Re: WK163 Canberra?

Post by Richard B » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:12 am

In my view it would be better to have given it to a fully voluntary group at Elvington or Bruntingthorpes, good chance of it being a ground runner very quickly.

Nnthusiast
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Re: WK163 Canberra?

Post by Nnthusiast » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:34 am

I think the wording on the press release is a bit 'interesting', like they knew in March, but said nothing to even their founding members.

Did the 'investor' have confidence lost in them or did the 'investor' actually lose confidence in the groups ability to drive it forward.

So they are going to reduce costs by 31%? dandy, thats just more lower ranks going from the wage bill and not the peeps that matter who seem to treat it as their pension.
This is just another nail in the coffin and the sooner they give up fanciful dreams of a hangar the better. Who for instance would be daft enough to give them money for such a building? well possibly an airline or aircraft maintenance company who could and probably will, take on the space themselves, either for freight handling, or jet maintenance.

Note that they no longer have a forum on their web site, announcements are dragged out to the extreme, and they have lost (in their admission) many members and investors.

Busted Flush springs to mind, but as long as they want self agrandizement, they will be continuing, while 558 and 163 deteriorate accordingly. And they both do, no matter what the group says.

XPLUMBER
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Re: WK163 Canberra?

Post by XPLUMBER » Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:15 am

VTTS the story that just keeps giving!

I wonder just how often they have to admit it's all going Pete Tong?
CANONs carried by an ARMOURER!


hangars are for shirts!

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C24
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Re: WK163 Canberra?

Post by C24 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:15 pm

Graham wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:03 pm
I read recently the Swift has departed, anyone know to where?
Africa, perhaps?
C24.
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jakdaw
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Re: WK163 Canberra?

Post by jakdaw » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:30 pm

C24 wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:15 pm
Graham wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:03 pm
I read recently the Swift has departed, anyone know to where?
Africa, perhaps?
:lol: Well done sir!!

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Tiger 1
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Re: WK163 Canberra?

Post by Tiger 1 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:38 pm

😁😁very good... probably back to where it came from... happy to be corrected if I'm wrong... but I seem to recall reading somewhere... that when it was loaned to VTTS it was of the understanding that the aircraft would be stored undercover.

I don't think putting it under the wing of the Vulcan was quite what was expected... that is where it was the last time I saw it..

T1

Supra
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Re: WK163 Canberra?

Post by Supra » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:33 pm

Too easy to criticise any iteration of VTTS for what they haven't achieved since the Vulcan ceased flying. The plain truth of the current situation & SURELY primary objective is that with nada, zip, zilch is happening to protect the airframe/airframes from the corrosive effects of the UK climate over successive years. There will be a finite end to these futile attempts brought about not by personal ineptitude in getting that deal done, but by the extended timeframe of external storage rendering the aircraft unworthy of preservation.
I haven't examined (even if it was possible?) the present financial arrangement in detail, but quite why funds are being drained to NOT achieve the basic requirement is unforgiveable. If all the coffers have been plundered & the basics haven't materialised, then I can't see any 'investor' funding a venture with a proven track record in peeing substantial donated monies away! Any 'investment' needs to generate a return, what chance of that happening here? The 'magic' of the Vulcan is over, it's just a money-pit, a static lifeless hulk slowly dying. Forget 31% cost reductions, try 100% cost reduction? The current custodians (VTTS Trust) of 'The Peoples Aircraft' should consider resigning & contractually transferring responsibility to a Volunteer Trust who don't require a salary & have the drive to get the Vulcan undercover.
I personally would rather see XH558 in the middle of a roundabout near the airport, accessible to all who supported it's return to flight, able to see their names on the jet.... until H&S deem it too weak to remain! Much better that than parked-out in a secure inaccessible area on the Airport.

jamesg23
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Re: WK163 Canberra?

Post by jamesg23 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:37 pm

Supra wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:33 pm
Too easy to criticise any iteration of VTTS for what they haven't achieved since the Vulcan ceased flying. The plain truth of the current situation & SURELY primary objective is that with nada, zip, zilch is happening to protect the airframe/airframes from the corrosive effects of the UK climate over successive years. There will be a finite end to these futile attempts brought about not by personal ineptitude in getting that deal done, but by the extended timeframe of external storage rendering the aircraft unworthy of preservation.
I haven't examined (even if it was possible?) the present financial arrangement in detail, but quite why funds are being drained to NOT achieve the basic requirement is unforgiveable. If all the coffers have been plundered & the basics haven't materialised, then I can't see any 'investor' funding a venture with a proven track record in peeing substantial donated monies away! Any 'investment' needs to generate a return, what chance of that happening here? The 'magic' of the Vulcan is over, it's just a money-pit, a static lifeless hulk slowly dying. Forget 31% cost reductions, try 100% cost reduction? The current custodians (VTTS Trust) of 'The Peoples Aircraft' should consider resigning & contractually transferring responsibility to a Volunteer Trust who don't require a salary & have the drive to get the Vulcan undercover.
I personally would rather see XH558 in the middle of a roundabout near the airport, accessible to all who supported it's return to flight, able to see their names on the jet.... until H&S deem it too weak to remain! Much better that than parked-out in a secure inaccessible area on the Airport.
If it goes on a roundabout it would just end up like the lightning on the a1!

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C24
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Re: WK163 Canberra?

Post by C24 » Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:49 am

:roll:
For once in my posting on FC I will try not to be too flip and be constructive in my comments.

This is the short version.

Hangar space; the UK MOD has more than it can possibly utilise.

Labour; we have Air Cadets, enlisted personnel undergoing training for various trades, trained personnel of all sorts who are sent on exercises to maintain their skill levels and their enthusiasm for the Services...

Logistics; trucks, Queen Marys, underslung load training (damn ;) reinforcing?), C-130&-17 rough terrain landing sorties...

Finance; the UK has sufficient in the budgeting relating to the above to cover all eventualities and more...

Motivation; and there we have the problem! See how our little Trumpette, Boris, manages over the the next few months then we could move on to;

Implementing my cunning plan.

:thumb: Bold Rick, a.k.a., C24.

E&OE :)
C24.
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Vulcan74
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Re: WK163 Canberra?

Post by Vulcan74 » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:34 am

I just hope that they can house the Canberra & Vulcan some where safe & secure in a hangar some where for folks to see, easy said than done by the looks of things, but a big shame if this all goes to pot!!

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C24
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Re: WK163 Canberra?

Post by C24 » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:47 am

Yup!
C24.
493d/48th - Grim Reapers Supporter.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/charlie-two-four/ FuzzyFastjetFotos, incorporating "HazyHelos"
There's no "go-round" in a glider.

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StevenNFFC
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Re: WK163 Canberra?

Post by StevenNFFC » Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:03 pm

Supra wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:33 pm
Too easy to criticise any iteration of VTTS for what they haven't achieved since the Vulcan ceased flying. The plain truth of the current situation & SURELY primary objective is that with nada, zip, zilch is happening to protect the airframe/airframes from the corrosive effects of the UK climate over successive years. There will be a finite end to these futile attempts brought about not by personal ineptitude in getting that deal done, but by the extended timeframe of external storage rendering the aircraft unworthy of preservation.
I haven't examined (even if it was possible?) the present financial arrangement in detail, but quite why funds are being drained to NOT achieve the basic requirement is unforgiveable. If all the coffers have been plundered & the basics haven't materialised, then I can't see any 'investor' funding a venture with a proven track record in peeing substantial donated monies away! Any 'investment' needs to generate a return, what chance of that happening here? The 'magic' of the Vulcan is over, it's just a money-pit, a static lifeless hulk slowly dying. Forget 31% cost reductions, try 100% cost reduction? The current custodians (VTTS Trust) of 'The Peoples Aircraft' should consider resigning & contractually transferring responsibility to a Volunteer Trust who don't require a salary & have the drive to get the Vulcan undercover.
I personally would rather see XH558 in the middle of a roundabout near the airport, accessible to all who supported it's return to flight, able to see their names on the jet.... until H&S deem it too weak to remain! Much better that than parked-out in a secure inaccessible area on the Airport.
Bang on. I can remember when VTTS used to come out to a stricken XH558 in Transit vans and then a couple of years down the line they turned up in Audis, BMW's etc. all with "VTTS" emblazoned on their sides. Would love to see a full breakdown of where all the money went.

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RJ79
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Re: WK163 Canberra?

Post by RJ79 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:58 am

Looking at the accounts for October 2017 (2018 not available) nearly £450k was spent on salaries on a turnover of £1.4 million and it's the first time they haven't had to declare the CEO's salary so at least they are starting to cut in the right areas. In the real world this wouldn't be a problem but when your income now is virtually nil (safe to say it's nowhere near £1.4m now), you need a complete rethink. Apparently the Canberra is boxed up so safe to say that won't happen, I agree with other comments, wind the Trust up, it's had it's day and sort some other arrangement to save/preserve the airframe, it's the very least it deserves.
Cheers,

Rob

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Supra
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Re: WK163 Canberra?

Post by Supra » Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:11 am

Interesting figures RJ79. Whilst the accounts are for 2017 it's safe to say that with zero public access to ground-runs, photo-op's & private tours since then, you have to sell a heap of Mugs & Tee-shirts to make any profit whatsoever. The 'Gravy-Train' has hit the buffers! (well, it was derailed anyway?) ;)
Even for an organisation trading on a tenable basis, the old adage still applies....."The only way to make a small profit from aviation is to start-out with a large one!" :roll:

jamesg23
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Re: WK163 Canberra?

Post by jamesg23 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:44 pm

Supra wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:11 am
Interesting figures RJ79. Whilst the accounts are for 2017 it's safe to say that with zero public access to ground-runs, photo-op's & private tours since then, you have to sell a heap of Mugs & Tee-shirts to make any profit whatsoever. The 'Gravy-Train' has hit the buffers! (well, it was derailed anyway?) ;)
Even for an organisation trading on a tenable basis, the old adage still applies....."The only way to make a small profit from aviation is to start-out with a large one!" :roll:
They have still been doing engine runs this year. They have been charging £125 for you to watch an engine run (not a taxi run) and people have still been going to this.

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