Trained Pilots-No Planes

[Snoop 95]

This is a BBC article from March 2019, so if it has been posted before-my apologies. However, it is very disturbing if the situation has not changed since then.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47420698

[Bucky P]

Should have been kept in house instead of contracting out! Privatisation costs considerably more and reduces overall control and efficiency!

[reheat module]

Sadly it's not new news to be published.
The training mechanism is broken.

[Richard B]

So what happened to the Hundreds of Tornado pilots plus the Harrier and Jaguar to name a few.
The amount of highly skilled and combat experienced pilots lost over the last 10 years is a national scandal.
See Babcock have there fingers in the pie,same firm doing HS2.
You can see where this will end up.

[Bucky P]

I wonder how many ministers have investment interests in Babcock?

[Agent K]

I wonder how many ministers have investment interests in Sed Babcock?

Think the company is called just Babcock, not Sed? Babcock.

[Agent K]

Should have been kept in house instead of contracting out! Privatisation costs considerably more and reduces overall control and efficiency!

It’s all about cash flow and fixed costs rather than overall cost saving though. If you can spread your spend over, say, 25 years rather than paying most up front then that might be very attractive.

[big john]

I wonder how many ministers have investment interests in Sed Babcock?

If you really want know, you can download the register of MP's finacial interests :- https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... ts1719.htm
Something to keep you quiet on a rainy day.

[Phoon]

Should have been kept in house instead of contracting out! Privatisation costs considerably more and reduces overall control and efficiency!

It’s all about cash flow and fixed costs rather than overall cost saving though. If you can spread your spend over, say, 25 years rather than paying most up front then that might be very attractive.

But end up paying for said asset 3 or 4 times over what you would have done had you paid for it up front. And in some cases never own it.

[Phoon]

So what happened to the Hundreds of Tornado pilots plus the Harrier and Jaguar to name a few.
The amount of highly skilled and combat experienced pilots lost over the last 10 years is a national scandal.
See Babcock have there fingers in the pie,same firm doing HS2.
You can see where this will end up.

Now flying for Easyjet / Virgin Atlantic / BA etc......

[Fighterfoto]

There have always been Holding Officers and always will be. The majority of the current pool of holdies will have been cleared in a couple of years. The current training pipeline was designed for SDSR12 which saw a much reduced throughput of trainees. This changed with SDSR15 which increased demand which is now being resolved, in part with some temporary outsourcing of training. There is however no shortage of pilots on the frontline and the Ex-Tornado pilots have been absorbed elsewhere.

[wolfie138]

why can the jets not be flown over water?

[Agent K]

why can the jets not be flown over water?

It’s not the jets, it’s the propeller (turboprop) T6’s that had issues with certification of the life preservation gear I believe.

[Agent K]

Should have been kept in house instead of contracting out! Privatisation costs considerably more and reduces overall control and efficiency!

It’s all about cash flow and fixed costs rather than overall cost saving though. If you can spread your spend over, say, 25 years rather than paying most up front then that might be very attractive.

But end up paying for said asset 3 or 4 times over what you would have done had you paid for it up front. And in some cases never own it.

Agreed you pay more, but it means you don’t need that money up front, as I say, it’s a cash flow thing.

[ColintheCaterpillar]

This is a BBC article from March 2019, so if it has been posted before-my apologies. However, it is very disturbing if the situation has not changed since then.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47420698

Training systems go through cycles. It will take years to clear any backlog. There won’t be any immediate visible change. You can’t just magic up more airfields, aircraft, days in the week and - most importantly - instructors.

Should have been kept in house instead of contracting out! Privatisation costs considerably more and reduces overall control and efficiency!

Sadly the National Audit Office suggested in around 2000 that military flying training was inefficient (it always has had natural peaks and troughs, fallow periods and surges). “PFI everything” fans Blair and Brown were straight on board.

[Agent K]

[Sadly the National Audit Office suggested in around 2000 that military flying training was inefficient (it always has had natural peaks and troughs, fallow periods and surges). “PFI everything” fans Blair and Brown were straight on board.

The training was excellent, no doubt about that, but, came at a heavy price, and didn't optimise efficiency, and when both infrastructure and fleets (all of them - Helos, Primary, Tucano, Hawk T1, Dominie/King Air) needed upgrading. The money was not there for all that up front cost (I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing, just stating facts) hence fix that cost and sp[read that cost through PFI. As always with these things, contracts, and writing, and framework and management of them are key, and make or break such initiatives.

[Doughnut]

PFI contracts signed years ago worked for the government and the MOD requirements at the time they were signed.
Sadly they can not react quickly to changed requirements without massive extra costs being incurred by the MOD.
The PFI can not (or will not) amend the contract to increase or decrease the service being provided.
What bugs me is when a PFI deal comes to and end the Contractor walks away all the assets and can resell them on the open market, assets which have been paid for by MOD.
Would be interesting to know how much has been made from the sale of Grob 115 to Finland, the Cranwell King Air's and Shawbury Squirrel's and Griffon's on the civil market ?

[Agent K]

Unless, of course, you write the contract whereupon on termination you end up owning the assets, which of course would then require the additional costs of depreciation to be built in over the lifetime of the contract. Swings and roundabouts.

They can react to changed requirements (of course at a cost) if the contract is written well in the first place and allows Change Orders for additional or changed requirements.

[ColintheCaterpillar]

[Sadly the National Audit Office suggested in around 2000 that military flying training was inefficient (it always has had natural peaks and troughs, fallow periods and surges). “PFI everything” fans Blair and Brown were straight on board.

The training was excellent, no doubt about that, but, came at a heavy price, and didn't optimise efficiency, and when both infrastructure and fleets (all of them - Helos, Primary, Tucano, Hawk T1, Dominie/King Air) needed upgrading. The money was not there for all that up front cost (I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing, just stating facts) hence fix that cost and sp[read that cost through PFI. As always with these things, contracts, and writing, and framework and management of them are key, and make or break such initiatives.

All true.

Sadly we didn’t have a very good crystal ball, or the ability to surge (or effectively double the capacity of the system!). We also may well have been very miserly in our specification of actual flying that could take place. Maybe with hindsight, the MFTS PFI would have been better limited to provision of infra and aeroplanes on the line, as opposed to the all encompassing system we’ve been given.

[toom317]

What bugs me is when a PFI deal comes to and end the Contractor walks away all the assets and can resell them on the open market, assets which have been paid for by MOD./quote]

I'm not a fan of these PFI's, but these assets haven't been paid for by the Mod. The aircraft were bought by the company supplying the contract, they are responsible for the maintenance and running costs of the contract, the MoD just rents the assets from them.